Stage 3 crow cam improvements

[Gemadore]

Just thought I would post the results of my VP engine upgrades for those mildly interested. Stock VP 3.8 Series 2 with T5 manual was fitted with a Stage 3 Crow Cam, Crow Chip, Heavy springs (all comes in kit) and a 70mm throttle body. Had it Dyno'd today and its generating 163.4 HP at the rear wheels. Not sure if thats massive power over stock but thought it may be of interest to those considering a cam kit.

[Ranuip]

How much was ur cam kit? Do u have the rockers as well, plan on getting them soon hopefully.....

[GTP 85]

my old VN wagon 5 speed made 169 rwhp with just a slight touch up with the tune with kalmaker. Stock internally just extractors and 2.5" exhaust

For the price you would have paid for all that gear it should have made a lot more..

Not knocking ya, just providing some of my experience

[hi_ryder]

who did your tune? just wondering

[Gemadore]

How much was ur cam kit? Do u have the rockers as well, plan on getting them soon hopefully.....

Got the kit from Steve at MACE. (Mace Engineering Group - Specialising in powering Australia's best Commodores | Automotive performance accessories) He did a great deal re the package. Give him a ring as he has specials going down all the time and you wont find cheaper. Rockers inbound and I will post a new dyno result once fitted.

[Gemadore]

my old VN wagon 5 speed made 169 rwhp with just a slight touch up with the tune with kalmaker. Stock internally just extractors and 2.5" exhaust

For the price you would have paid for all that gear it should have made a lot more..

Not knocking ya, just providing some of my experience

Holey S#$T Batman! 169 HP from a computer retune??! I should have bought your wagon LOL. Havent done the Kalmaker thing yet (used Crow Chip that cant be rewritten) and we found during the dyno, that the fuel rate was a bit wonky (rich at low revs). (poss from larger throttle body). Did the Kalmaker simply rewrite your stock chip? That will be the next step considering your comment.

[Gemadore]

Hmm just saw this on wiki.... V6 3.8 L 127 kW (170 hp): 3800 V6 Series 2

I think my readout of 163.4 might be Kw and not HP??? Therefore posting a Horsepower readout of approx 222.16. I couldnt image all those internal mods equalling less than stock HP? It says HP, but doenst really add up and as a track car I cant test the "seat of the pants feel" until race day...... legally.

Anyone else performed similar mods? If so, what HP are you running?

[GTP 85]

the standard HP that they quote would be at the engine.

Can you enquire if your readout was in HP of KW?

To me... 163 odd HP at the wheels is a bit low, yet 163 kw is a HUGE jump from standard for only a cam and no extra compression? (usually make 100ish rwkw stock manual)

The crow tunes are average... so its probably 163hp at the wheels...

A mate of mine is a tuner with 20 years of experience, so he just tunes my cars up for me on his dyno. Get a tune like this and you wil definitely make the most of the combo

[YURNXT]

Well mate I made 90rwkw and ran 15.5
With converter it ran 15.2
Dynos are for the tip... Only good to have a base map for afr's

Track does the talking so don't worry what you made it will be different everywhere you go.

[Gemadore]

the standard HP that they quote would be at the engine.

Can you enquire if your readout was in HP of KW?

To me... 163 odd HP at the wheels is a bit low, yet 163 kw is a HUGE jump from standard for only a cam and no extra compression? (usually make 100ish rwkw stock manual)

The crow tunes are average... so its probably 163hp at the wheels...

A mate of mine is a tuner with 20 years of experience, so he just tunes my cars up for me on his dyno. Get a tune like this and you wil definitely make the most of the combo

I would have to agree with you and the Crow cam OEM chip setup is not ideal. Is your mate located in Brissy? If so, do you have his contact details? Cheers

[GTP 85]

I would have to agree with you and the Crow cam OEM chip setup is not ideal. Is your mate located in Brissy? If so, do you have his contact details? Cheers

Unfortunately we are in sleepy old S.A. Delco tuners are a rare breed in eastern states, the way i see it

[Gemadore]

the standard HP that they quote would be at the engine.

Can you enquire if your readout was in HP of KW?

To me... 163 odd HP at the wheels is a bit low, yet 163 kw is a HUGE jump from standard for only a cam and no extra compression? (usually make 100ish rwkw stock manual)

The crow tunes are average... so its probably 163hp at the wheels...

A mate of mine is a tuner with 20 years of experience, so he just tunes my cars up for me on his dyno. Get a tune like this and you wil definitely make the most of the combo

Confirmed with Dyno guys 163 RWHP, not Kw. Damn it.

[Vlad01]

Confirmed with Dyno guys 163 RWHP, not Kw. Damn it.

that's actually not bad. stock is 127kw at the fly wheel which is about 90kw at the wheels due to drive train loss. 90kw is 121hp

so you have a 163hp at the wheels which is bit over 40hp more but working backwards to get an aprox flywheel figure is around 170kw or 227hp.

these drivetrain losses are based of auto I believe so its less in a manual so I would expect the flywheel figure to be closer to 200hp. Sound right for pre ecotec and considering the crappy tune crow have a rep for.


The smart thing to do would of been to do a pre and post mod dyno run.

One other thing, rolling dynos are POS for usable figures are they are grossly inaccurate and are only good for tuning and comparing same car results on the same dyno. Ridiculous comparing results from dyno to dyno car to car. means nothing like the one few post above with a tune and stock engine and making 169rwkw thats bogus result of that dyno.

only way to get an accurate comparable figure is to have the engine dyno'd on an engine dyno as they are far more accurate than rolling(chassis)dyno

[GTP 85]

that's actually not bad. stock is 127kw at the fly wheel which is about 90kw at the wheels due to drive train loss. 90kw is 121hp

so you have a 163hp at the wheels which is bit over 40hp more but working backwards to get an aprox flywheel figure is around 170kw or 227hp.

these drivetrain losses are based of auto I believe so its less in a manual so I would expect the flywheel figure to be closer to 200hp. Sound right for pre ecotec and considering the crappy tune crow have a rep for.


The smart thing to do would of been to do a pre and post mod dyno run.

One other thing, rolling dynos are POS for usable figures are they are grossly inaccurate and are only good for tuning and comparing same car results on the same dyno. Ridiculous comparing results from dyno to dyno car to car. means nothing like the one few post above with a tune and stock engine and making 169rwkw thats bogus result of that dyno.

only way to get an accurate comparable figure is to have the engine dyno'd on an engine dyno as they are far more accurate than rolling(chassis)dyno

You just contradicted yourself. That was a comparison i made on my base dyno. Mine made 150 rwhp before the tune on the same dyno so how is that bogus?

I agree though, that you can't accurately compare any two dynos. I was just giving Gemadore an idea. But you have to admit that 163rwhp is towards the low end of what a modified manual v6 should 'ideally' make. the region of 150- 160 rwhp is what you should see from most manual v6 straight off the bat (of course with the mandatory entry level mods: cai, exhaust). This is purely what i have witnessed from MY experience though

I wouldnt worry bout it tho Gemadore. Even just a stock auto v6 would go a treat in a little Gemmi! I'd like to do a v6 Gem or a KE70 one day. I have an engine and a t5 sitting in the shed waiting for that day. Might do turbo too tho

[Vlad01]

You just contradicted yourself. That was a comparison i made on my base dyno. Mine made 150 rwhp before the tune on the same dyno so how is that bogus?

I agree though, that you can't accurately compare any two dynos. I was just giving Gemadore an idea. But you have to admit that 163rwhp is towards the low end of what a modified manual v6 should 'ideally' make. the region of 150- 160 rwhp is what you should see from most manual v6 straight off the bat (of course with the mandatory entry level mods: cai, exhaust). This is purely what i have witnessed from MY experience though

I wouldnt worry bout it tho Gemadore. Even just a stock auto v6 would go a treat in a little Gemmi! I'd like to do a v6 Gem or a KE70 one day. I have an engine and a t5 sitting in the shed waiting for that day. Might do turbo too tho

how is that contradicting myself? I read it and it makes perfect sense.

isn't your statement about my supposed contradiction a contradiction in itself?

Still bogus though as that would be impossible figures even your stock figure. They simply do not make that much stock at the wheels unless your tell us it stock vs minor mod when in fact you have done much more? most likey the dyno reads higher than the standard HP unit. They can be out as much as 25%


read up on HP international standards and dynos, you'll find out about their "accuracy"

Not saying stuff about you car or figures but sould be noted dyno number are to be interporated with a grain of salt not as gospel

[GTP 85]

How many standard commodores actually make what they are supposed to make, according to factory figures? Ive seen one, and that engine died a few months later. 150rwhp is approx 110 kw at the wheels and if a near stock V6 manual cant make 100-110 then something's going on, purely my opinion.

I expressed to Gemadore a comparison of what my VN made on MY base dyno before/ after a tune (only mods were extractors 2.5 exhaust and cai). you then proceeded to call my figure 'bogus' coz you believe a car has to make what the manufacturer states. I then state what it made before the tune so that all could understand the baseline figure on that SAME dyno. A dyno is used for tuning right? I can dig up the baseline dyno reading and afr difference if you want but i cbf as it just a number

My tuner uses a comination of dyno and road tuning, which nets pretty good tuning feedback

As you said... I measure my gains on the one dyno, sure it can vary, i dont care. I'm just curious to see improvements in afr more than anything. some people say its high some say its low. again, i didnt care, whether it make 100hp or 160hp.. it went harder then my mates 5L VS and that was a good enough measure for me. 'international standards', 'accuracy'.. couldnt really give a hoot tbh. i much prefer seeing the gains in action for real

The sentence after your highlighting... i said i was giving Gemadore an IDEA, an example.. Never said it was "gospel" never said it was right and his reading was wrong. I said it seemed to be low according my best mate (dyno operator and mechanic)

You have your opinions and good points Vlad and i have mine. Lets just agree to disagree. The thread is Gemadore's, and i didnt/dont wish to knock him or further fill his thread with stuff that doesnt help him