air con hooked up to air intake?
i have got a mate who thinks if ya hook ya air conditioning up so that it cools the air about to go into the motor it will give more power. from reading threads regarding hot air intake pipes, people think the air flows that fast it dosent make any difference to the actual air temperature. so it would be the same if the air flowed through a cold radiator or something like that? he reckons it might use 5hp to run the air but should gain more.
has anybody heard of this being tried before?
this mate of mine is a bit of an inventor, he even made his own jo cell as an example so he is worth listening to.
The Wagon on Wheels..
I sounds like it may have merit, but i seriously doubt it would do much at all as the air velocity going through the intake system would water it down very quickly and the offset of running the a/c all the time would definatly not make it worth it at all. The only thing i think you could expect is worse fuel economy.
Firstly. It wont be able to pump enough air in to be of any use apart from at very light loads (like cruising at 60km/h) and that those revs the engine is only makes a few hp anyway so the few the engine takes to run the compressor will be more than the gain.
Secondly. At full throttle where it wont make any difference due to the aircon being just a puff of air compared to the typhoon worth the engine needs at 5000 rpm, well at full throttle the air con pump is turned off anyway
The outside air will be colder than the factory aircon could manage anyway for more than half the year anyway (at least here), and there is enough of it to feed the engine at any revs. I think imortality has messured a good cold intake to be worth 10rwhp? on his V6 in NZ conditions and that's pretty impressive
lol, i was going to just email and ask you. i thought yours would be the brain to pick. but didnt want to annoy ya lol.
cheers for the reply.
and yeah i thought i read here somewhere the aircon switched off at full throttle. good idea that.
he also had the idea of squirting o3 directly into the intake manifold lol. hes crazy i tell ya. he said at idle it makes an engine run 700 revs higher on a car he tried it on, he only tried it on idle. that would need some tricking tuning or it would run lean is my thought on that tho.
LS-EXUAL
How is he going to have a squirt shoot into the intake manifold whilst driving?
Originally Posted by wikky
I actually had the same thought. re-rout the a/c cold pipe to wrap around the intake a few coils, or if there were some way to fabricate up a metal intake with the coil attached. The idea isnt to have the a/c on all the time, but rather have the ability to cool the intake when the a/c is on. When is the a/c on? Usually on the hottest days.....means it will gain a degree or two in the cabin, but I thought worth exploring if you had access to the tools of the trade.
boosted!
maybe he will fit wings and fly to the ozone layer? if they'res any left up there!!!!
people people people... go out, buy a spare set of v6 heads, buy a die grinder and a rotary tool, get a suringe (no needle) some old oil and learn how to port!!!
use the oil in the heads to measure the ammount of CC in the port...
and leave the inventing to the scientists :P
im sure o3 would work but getting your hands on a cheap supply and induction method would be pointless, then you run the risk of detonation, nitrous and meth are tried and proven solutions... its hard to re-invent the wheel when china are mass producing them and selling them on ebay for $0.99...
Exhaust Guru
Dry ice in the airbox was popular in the 80's.
There has been at least one other post on here re. an A/C evaporator in the air intake before = search.
I posted there that one way to transfer heat out of the air using the A/C system might be to use a water injection system with the water precooled using the A/C - no intake restriction and very efficient heat transfer. (I haven't even done a basic calculation to see how much water would be required for it to be effective though.)
Refrigerant based intercooling with forced induction has actually been tried, apparently effectively.
On a N/A car, the pressure drop through the heat exchanger is likely to offset much of or more than the increase in density due to any decrease in temperature. It works with forced induction because the available temperature decrease is greater.
O2, as a refrigerated liquid, has also been tried during WW2 in military aircraft. Other compounds including refrigerated, low pressure N2O, hydrogen peroxide (at high concentration) and nitrogen peroxide have also been tried. There are good (mostly practical and safety) reasons why pressurised N2O is the oxidant used most widely now.
O2 enrichment, using membrane filtration to enrich the air inducted, has also been studied as a means to decrease emissions from diesel engines.
If O2 were introduced into a spark ignition engine, yes it would need extra fuel to avoid a lean mixture. It would also require an in cylinder coolant - water injection or extra fuel enrichment - to keep combustion temperatures reasonable as there is proportionately less inert 'stuff' (N2) available to absorb heat when compared to air.
If anyone does want to experiment with O2, enriched O2 atmospheres can result in rapid and spontaneous combustion of some materials under some circumstances = beware.
The air coming from the aircon even at full blast wouldnt even be as strong as wind travelling at 30km, let alone air travelling at 80km+ so normal CAI seems way more effective
Exhaust Guru
It's not the volume of air that is the issue, it's the temperature. It doesn't matter how much volume the air con can push out, only if it can effectively cool the intake air.
a guy here runs a dry ice intercooler on his supercharged v6 and is aparently very very effective, im not sure hows its set up tho. might have to ask
TURN MY HEADPHONES UP
get your mate to dyno it first, do his mod, and dyno it again! but there's always the old saying, you don't get something for nothing. i would say air conditioning is actually quite inefficient so there are more gains to be had elsewhere.
lol, it wouldnt be an easy or cheap mod. it was just an idea we talked about so i threw it on here for discussion. yeah dry ice (and nomal ice)has been used for a long time by hoons and petrolheads.
i just want a supercharger :P
dah dut dut da dah
if you could make the intake pipe, look like the bowser at the local pub, then go for it.
p brock had a similar idea, negative ion generator which work on humans not car's (polariza)
Research has shown that men usually sleep on the right side of the bed.
Even in our sleep we happen to be right.
Powered By Garrett
Check this out:
Design Engineering, Inc. - CryO2 Cryogenic Air Intake
(I'm not saying it works - there's not enough surface area to do anything useful but I think it's interesting nonetheless.)
Exhaust Guru
Why wouldn't it work? All it has to do is drop the intake temperature a couple of degrees and it's doing it's job.
dah dut dut da dah
their's no air in co2.
Research has shown that men usually sleep on the right side of the bed.
Even in our sleep we happen to be right.
Powered By Garrett
OK. Maybe. I'm sure that it would would do that (a couple of degrees). Depends what your expectations of it are. It might help a little bit if the CO2 outlet was directed back onto/along the air intake duct. Maybe inside an insulated sleeve concentric with it. How much to buy the CO2 vs the gain?
Burnz, the CO2 is used to cool the bulb in the intake duct, which is then meant to cool the intake air.
Exhaust Guru
Most bolt on go faster bits aren't about saving money though. You're right though about it being false economy, spend $100 to save $20.
Instead of having the air directed into the intake, just reroute the aircon lines through the intake, they would have a similar effect to the CO2 bulb. A lot of messing about though.
dah dut dut da dah
most HP gained will be lost on the aircon belt's/compressor.
Research has shown that men usually sleep on the right side of the bed.
Even in our sleep we happen to be right.
Powered By Garrett
But my point was its not about hooking up the a/c fulltime, otherwise you would be correct. Rather have the ability to offset some of the power loss when the a/c is used.
My grandad has a perpetual motion machine in his shed. Now if only he could get it started !!
What I was suggesting with the cost vs benefit comment was that there are better ways to spend the money for the same or better power outcome.
The CO2 system has much in common with a N2O system in terms of the parts it uses. What is different between them will cost a (broadly) similar amount of money. N2O is more expensive to buy than CO2 but the performance gain on it is vastly more than anything possible out of the CO2 based system. Legality is another question.
Chilling the air intake cannot save any money, only increase the maximum available power output. Attempting to cool the intake air at part throttle using the A/C system is self defeating. The A/C system has to work harder to pull the extra heat out of the intake air, hence PINKY355's comment about perpetual motion. At higher loads, it's easier just to open the throttle more if more power is needed. Cold intake air is not necessarily what is needed at part throttle anyway.
At wide open throttle we already covered that the A/C system is turned off. Any extra power can only be made available by creating a cold heat sink when the A/C is working (at part throttle) and then cooling the intake air with that. That is why I was suggesting a practical way to do that might be with a (chilled) water injection system.
The rate of heat transfer due to conduction is a function of temperature and surface area (and a co-efficient for the materials used) so the CO2 bulb will work better than a car A/C because the boiling CO2 will be much colder than the A/C can achieve, even if the surface area is smaller. (The sublimation point - it doesn't boil at atmospheric pressure - of CO2 is -78.5C, a car A/C more like 0-5C.) The surface area even of the full length of an intake duct compared to that of a proper heat exchanger is small though.
Deleted double post.
Last edited by Cheap6; 03-06-2008 at 05:43 PM. Reason: double post
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