Banned
Temperamental
G'day cobbers,
My GTS is still being rather tempramental on start up, so I made this thread to see if anyone could throw some ideas at me.
I drive her about once a week and lastnight I went down and just let it idle in the shed, let her idle for 5 mins, started fine and good, turned her off.
I then went and done stuff for about 30 mins and came back and wanted to go for a drive, so I went to start her up. It done the usual cranking not no start, cranked again and no start, tried once more and this time i gave some full throttle pounces on the go button and then she fired. It spluttered really rough for about 1 minuite and had to give her a little revving encouragement to get her to ide fine, then she drive and went like normal.
What I explaned above hapens sometimes, not all the time.
Questions:
Why did it start when I pushed the throttle?
Does this mean It wasnt getting any fuel, or was it flooded?
Can this be fuel pressure regulalator related?
Facts:
The fuel pump WAS primed and is new Walbro.
Fuel filter has been changed twice in last year.
Injector cleaner goes in abbout once every 4 months.
Injectors have been replaced with reconditioned ones about 3 months ago.
Brainstorm!
The Wagon on Wheels..
If you think it its a fuel pressure related issue, you could temporarily hook up an electric sender and gauge in your car. I did that with mine when i thought had a fuel pressure issue that was very intermittant and it turned out it was the pump.
Banned
take the fuel pressure regulator hose off the manifold, if there's any signs of fuel coming out then its buggered, others can include head gasket, might be leaking non combustible fluid in the cylinder(s) and takes a crank or 2 to pump it out, could be coil, ignition module, hall effect sensor, ive replaced these before and they have a tendancy to either fail pre-maturely or come stuffed from the factory, same for fuel pumps.......
id be looking into a flooded motor to begin with, if you take the intake pipe off before a start is there a strong smell of petrol form the t/b??? and is there black smoke when you strat it up??? does the car stall sometimes with no reason, then starts straight away???
Banned
Ignmodule has been resoldered and tested (Auto Elecs), Coil has been replaced, Hall effect sensor has been tested (Auto Elecs), Vaccume hoses to Manifold have been replaced when I took the manifold off and changed the Gaskets. Like I said, Walbro Fuel pump has been done. It dosnt and has never blown black smoke, although it does produce a fair amount of water upon start up. As far as I know its due to condensation and a healthy engine will produce that.Originally Posted by vnv8driver
So thats whats got me thinking its fuel related, I may have to check the fuel pressure. Other then that could coolant be getting into the cylinders? If so how would I know.
Also, she HAS been known to stall on occasions, after first startup in the morning just after backing out of the shed, then I hop out to close the shed door and STALL. That hasnt happened for a while though.
Last edited by Emackulation; 03-06-2008 at 03:28 PM.
Banned
yeah condensation is normal, but if your revving it and can visually see white plumes pour out it may be a head gasket, some drops of water and mist is normal but theres a fine line between condensation and coolant burning off!
Get a video or something......and also take that hose off the manifold (from pressure reg) and put some tissue under it, come back in a few hours and if its soaked, then you know its the pressure eg....
The easiest way to tell if your up for a head gasket is to do a compression test, but could also be valve stem seals letting some oil in or valley gasket letting water to the inlet.... lots of possibilities, i dont want to scare you but its something to think about..
i think a video of the next time it happens will be a good start.
Banned
Well yeah, I havnt got a comp test as yet, but I put glue arround all the inlet holes on the head when I took the manifold off, I also clean the surfaces back nice and tightened them via the correct seuqence and torque settings.
I did get a video lastnight, but I took it a little later when it wasnt as thick, but ill upload it tonight and see what you make from it. Its a white smoke.
Banned
when you rev it, does it flow more white smoke as you rev it (kinda thick white) if so, and its not 5 am in the morning (really cold), then id runlets see the viideo first though..
And does it go away or always blowing the smoke? are you loosing coolant at all? (check overflow bottle level as well to get a better indication of whats been used)
Banned
I didnt rev it lastnight, but yeah once I drive it, it goes away, and lastnight when I did this it was about 10pm so it was kinda cold. And it was foggie lastnight too.when you rev it, does it flow more white smoke as you rev it (kinda thick white) if so, and its not 5 am in the morning (really cold), then id run
And does it go away or always blowing the smoke? are you loosing coolant at all? (check overflow bottle level as well to get a better indication of whats been used)
I am loosing coolant, BUT thats because the top of my radiator has formed a myterious leak that I should fix soon.
Also, if it was a head gasket woudnt the oil be milky?
Last edited by Emackulation; 03-06-2008 at 04:39 PM.
Banned
The water may not be protruding the oil galleries and such, could be a water jacket leaking directly to the combustion chamber....
If the water vapour out the exhaust goes away after its warmed up then id say its probably not a gasket problem, but dont cross it off the list for good.
i think vn vnv8driver is on the money,
i think you have a drizzle of coolant into your combustion chambers, pull out your spark plugs and have a look for some obvious signs eg a bit of corrosion around the plugs, only slightly.
Banned
Banned
looks like condensation to me, best way is to get a mate to drive behind you, then give it a few good bursts on the accelerator.. if you have any water or oil leaks into the combustion chamber it will plume out the exhaust.
get a compression test to be sure, a comp test kit will only set you back 40-50 bucks for a half decent one
Banned
I booked the sexy whore into Ultratune to do a engine scan tmr morning. Lets hope it shows up whats causing my problem.
ƃuoɹʍ ʇsnɾ sı sıɥʇ
Mack,
get some contact cleaner from an electronics store - the good stuff and a compressor with an air blower on it.
then go over every single plug in your engine bay, unplug it, spray contact cleaner on there and on the thing that it plugs in to, blow it out with air, contact clean again, plug in/out a dozen times, then blow out again.... (this applies to all the plugs/sockets for the fuses and relays as well - the relays have a habit of pushing in their socketty contact things as well, so be sure to check they're all in the right spot).. be sure to inspect all pins/clips for proper connectivity.
also make sure you go over the plugs and wires going into the ecu, make sure they're all sitting nicely, not being stretched etc..
see if problem is still present...
then if it is:
- check your ECU for fault codes and report back
- when it cranks but no starty, can you smell fuel out the exhaust at all?
- do you have an ALDL cable? what are all the sensors reading?
- do you have a/or a factory immobiliser fitted? is it possible a switch for this is playing up?
From my experiences, I've found tempremental problems are wiring related like 90% of the time - specially when you have an engine in the engine bay wiggling around and jiggling 15 year old wiring! - It's free and easy to clean all the contacts before trying more expensive options
Banned
I cant say ive went and smelt the exhaust when it didnt start, I should have technically took a plug out to see for foulies. But ive booked in tmr for the diagnostic and after I do that Ill also clean the connectors like you said. I basically had the loom off the motor when I took the manifold off and put new conduit on them because the old stuff was oil covered. The car has never read any fault codes. I just hope that the diag pics it up and its just a rooted sensor.Mack,
get some contact cleaner from an electronics store - the good stuff and a compressor with an air blower on it.
then go over every single plug in your engine bay, unplug it, spray contact cleaner on there and on the thing that it plugs in to, blow it out with air, contact clean again, plug in/out a dozen times, then blow out again.... (this applies to all the plugs/sockets for the fuses and relays as well - the relays have a habit of pushing in their socketty contact things as well, so be sure to check they're all in the right spot
also make sure you go over the plugs and wires going into the ecu, make sure they're all sitting nicely, not being stretched etc..
see if problem is still present...
then if it is:
- check your ECU for fault codes and report back
- when it cranks but no starty, can you smell fuel out the exhaust at all?
- do you have an ALDL cable? what are all the sensors reading?
- do you have a/or a factory immobiliser fitted? is it possible a switch for this is playing up?
From my experiences, I've found tempremental problems are wiring related like 90% of the time - specially when you have an engine in the engine bay wiggling around and jiggling 15 year old wiring! - It's free and easy to clean all the contacts before trying more expensive options
Banned
Engine Diagnositc test has been run, nothing showed up, they said that its blowing black smoke upon startup and smells fueley. Its stull up there and they asked about my injectors because they thought they were leaking, but I told them I got reco'd ones so it shoudnt be them.
Im really leaning towards a faulty fuel pressure regulator thats holding too much pressure so that when you crank it, the injectors open and the high pressure shoots in a ****load of fuel and foul the plugs.
What do you guys make of this?!
ƃuoɹʍ ʇsnɾ sı sıɥʇ
get a fuel pressure gauge and you should know for sure - but I still think you should start the car and run it, then poke at stuff with a stick until it turns off. (including the pressure reg)
The pressure reg would be pretty hard to stuff just 'tempromentally' - it's essentially just a spring with a diapragm... if the pressure of the fuel exceeds that of the spring, it will allow the spring to 'compress' and let the diaphragm pass fuel into the return line...
what you're saying would suggest that the spring has 'more tension' to break initially (i.e. allowing the fuel pressure to climb), but only sometimes..... and only on startup.
Have you tried with the stock tune?
Also might be worthwhile pulling the fuel rail off with the injectors, then priming the pump (hence raising the fuel pressure) and seeing if there's dripskis of fuel or anythign leaking throuhg the 'jectors
Banned
The cars still up there and I told them to check the regulator, so hopefully they cant ell me if this is the issue, they know about the custom tune and complimented me on a stunning VP. I had the STD tune in when I sent the Foamtune back down for him to redo it. I beleive it has had this issue sine Ive had her, so thats with the STD tune, the first Foamtune without Knock board and the updated Foamtune with knock board. But I will and put the stock tune back in and try again when I get home.
ƃuoɹʍ ʇsnɾ sı sıɥʇ
Thinking 'atype' (aloud) here...
I'm just thinking along the lines of .... say the water temp sensor connector is a bit dodgy, or the wiring has heated up a bit and only connects after it's jiggled in just the right way... or it's got a bit of corrosion on the wiring and alters the resistance if it's at JUST the right angle.. or something like that.
this scenario would mean that your ECU is getting a false water temp reading, and will be altering fuel/spark accordingly to what it THINKS the water temp is. (Same with throttle position sensor, seeing as you said it started after you moved the throttle?)
could the injectors be sticking open for some reason, for example? - after you turn the car off, sometimes? and shooting in a fair bit of fuel?
that would explain why it wouldn't start at all initially, then when you got more air in there (throttle and after a few cranks) it would start, but run like poo cause it's burning out all the leftover fuels?
does it always/rarely start first crack in the morning?
does it ever stall anymore?
does it ALWAYS blow black smoke/smell fuelly on startup? or only after it hasn't started?
Almost not here!
Instant stalling is most often electrical/ECU related (including wires and connectors). Like the car is running fine then dies as you are driving along.
Low fuel pressure will give a spluter & cough more so than instant engine no go.
White 05 V6 VZ Executive - Thrashed Ex Telstra car
and 3 Dangerous non ABS VN's
Banned
does it always/rarely start first crack in the morning? Yes, starts easy in the morning.
does it ever stall anymore? It hasnt stalled for a good while, it only stalled a few times, maybe 5 in total, but that was a while ago
does it ALWAYS blow black smoke/smell fuelly on startup? or only after it hasn't started? From what ive seen, it dosnt blow really dark black smoke or any thats noticable, they said it was today but im thinking its doing it because they would be turning it off and trying to restart over and over so more and more fuel gets burnt, so it would be worse for them atm.
Before I took the manifold off the valley seals were rooted and thats what caused everything to be covered in oil. That includes all the coolant temp sensors etc, When I did the mani I gave the sensors a clean up, but nothing major, so I guess there could be oil in the terminal of the coolant temp sensor, I took the cooant temo sensor out and sanded it up when I did the mani too, so it should be functioning proper. I may ring them up and tell them to inspect the coolant temp sensor terminals. Thanks.
ƃuoɹʍ ʇsnɾ sı sıɥʇ
so, if you were to start it first thing in the morning
then run it for about 5 minutes....
then turn it off
wait about 10 seconds
and start it again
would it just 'randomly' not start? or would it start every time, or not start or ?
Banned
They are on lunch atm and are going to check the fuel pressure after lunch. I told him about the coolant temp conector so they can check that too. He mentioned the ECU may be the issue, he said maybe the ecu is telling the injecors to stay open at some stage which in turn floods the chambers.
Banned
Now that you put it that way, It just cranks untill I put the foot on the accelly. Although, there were times where I have driven it around for a period of time, went to get fuel, then paid the money and came back and she would start up normally. So yeah, it dosnt always dot he same thing, but majority of the time it would just crank.
ƃuoɹʍ ʇsnɾ sı sıɥʇ
ok, well if the other blokes don't solve it - will be worthwhile doing a injector leaky test!
could for some reason be leaking/injecting fuel just after it turns off... then that floods the motor hence no starty right away - however when you leave it overnight, it's enough time for the fuel to evaporate and make it start up mint first crack!
good thing to eliminate, anyway
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