vp head gasket blown questions

[rileyp]

Hi all
I have a vp with a blown head gasket small leak (oil in water but not bubbling wildly just yet oil colour is stll brown but starting to lighten)and would like to drive it home its located 30km away
Will it harm anything if i attempt to drive it home gently?
So should I
1 Have a crack and tow with rope if it dosent make it.
or
2 Just go and a hire a tandem and be done.
cheers Rileyp

[aussieghostrider]

You sure its headgasket ? could be inlet manifold or timing cover gasket. Timing cover or inlet manifold gasket problem would give you same symptoms as blown head gasket , also every mechanic I ask says head gaskets rarely go in these it's usually a conrod or engine bearing that goes first.

30kms wont do any harm aslong as there is some water in there..

Theres a product called CARGO its sold at repco,supercheap auto , kamrt , bigw etc
is in a clear bottle with silicone/copper dust that when put into cooling system blocks holes all thruout engine and I have used every 1 or 2 years to stop the small leaks you get with old engines and works 100%

just make sure you flush engine with water and only use water to fill up radiator then add the stuff then go for a good drive like 30mins or more so the stuff goes thru all hoses etc , even turn the heater on so goes thru that.

I leave the stuff in for days ... then I flush engine again with the garden hose then add the usual distiled eater and coolant.

and for a 30km drive would be good drive to run the stuff thru , yes there are other stop leaks around but this one is glass/copper which is better than any crud that other companies produce.

[rileyp]

Well I drove it home and it made it without the additive as I left prior to to your suggestion being posted, thanks anyway.
I also need to explain the situation better with which I am faced.
I just bought the car with the knowledge the head gasket is supposedly blown.
It had 250k on the clock upon purchase.I looked at the car this arvo and was happy with what I was getting myself into for the price.
I understand I may need to do a engine rebuild.
I drove the car home with the old man following me with a tow rope just in case.
The engine oil is clean with no water in it.
Steam is coming out the exhaust even when its hot....so there is definately water getting into the combustion chamber somehow.
Upon looking in the radiator on getting home it appear someone has attempted some chemical treatment already as the water is a pinky colour with floaty bits.
This afternoon whilst looking at radiator it looked like clean tap water with no additives at all.
Now I don't know if its the head gasket or not as you have suggested the intake manifold or timing case as well and now Im even more confused.
What to do now?
reattempt using CARGO?
or start stripping it down?
Im in no great hurry to get on road as I have 4 months before rego runs out on my other car and so I can fix this one up in the mean time.
Any advise much appreciated.
cheers Rileyp

[jas98]

sounds like inlet manifold...i would rip the inlet off and see...should be able to tell if its been leaking ...if not then may be head gasket but seeing there is no water in oil i doubt it will be

[azkwazere]

put it this way... you need to strip the inlet manifold gasket to do a head gasket anyway so start there!

I doubt its a HG... im going with inlet manifold..

aZk.

[rileyp]

Thinking outloud.....
Its not going to be timing case is it?
else I'd just have milky oil?
This idea of mine is on notion the water entering combustion chamber is being vapourised and condensing again in exhaust pipe and so no water going into sump causing milky oil?
Whats a intake gasket worth?
Is there a intake/head gasket replacement guide on here somewhere?
I can work it out myself as I have rebuilt a few motors (hmm 3 or 4 about 10 years ago or more) but these days of internet help make every job so much easier...
I liked the radio replacement guide .. saved me breaking bits of plastic and learning the hard way...
cheers Rileyp

[VPCalais38]

Seeing as you dont mind doing work on the car yourself it might be time to invest in a workshop manual.

I havent seen any how-to's on heads etc on here.

Plus a good workshop manual will give you enough information if the internet is unaccessible ie: side of the road.

Having said that its not a hard task to do the heads. Just take your time and you will be fine.
If you only ever tinkered with older carb engines the only thing different I can think of as far as fuel system goes anyway is depressurise your fuel lines to the fuel rail.
To do this you just have to pull the fuel pump fuse out and start her up. Let it run til it has used the fuel in the lines and crank her over a few times to make sure and voila! Start removing stuff. hehe.

[accentstencil]

Upon looking in the radiator on getting home it appear someone has attempted some chemical treatment already as the water is a pinky colour with floaty bits.

Perhaps the pink colour is due to transmission fluid leaking into the radiator.

[rileyp]

Perhaps the pink colour is due to transmission fluid leaking into the radiator.

Should I respond to this?

[aussieghostrider]

Perhaps the pink colour is due to transmission fluid leaking into the radiator.

Yeah it could also be the radiator is stuffed and trans oils leaking into coolant.

[rileyp]

Would not the water pressure be far greater than the transmission fluid at all times and on top of this how on earth could transmision fluid make its way into a water channel in the radiator without water and trans fluid going everywhere in a noticeable manner.

[VPCalais38]

Have a look where your top and bottom radiator hose are attached to the radiator.
In between the top and bottom hoses on the same tank you will see two smaller transmission lines connected to the tank. These bring Auto transmission oil through the radiator to cool it down then send it back to the transmission.
Inside the tank is a metal tube and this tube can and does corrode. Therefore leaking trans fluid into your radiator.
Not sure about the pressure thing, but trans fluid will definitely make its way into the water.

Do yourself a favour. If the radiator is in otherwise ok condition, buy a Davies Craig or similar transmission cooler and bypass the radiator cooler pipe setup.

[azkwazere]

Doesnt explain fluid into combustion chamber though...

aZk.

[accentstencil]

Should I respond to this?

Please yourself. There have been people on this forum who have had transmission fluid in their radiator and no coolant in their transmission. So make of that what you will. This has nothing to do with you blown head gasket question but perhaps you have 2 problems.
I was offering a suggestion to you, I won't make that mistake again.

Looks like trans fluid in the coolant to me too.

Sometimes you are lucky enough not to get water into the transmission as the pressure of the trans fluid is higher than that of the cooling system. If the split is small enough, the fluid will go into the radiator and not the other way. Drain the fluid in the transmission and see if any coolant got in there.

[rileyp]

Please yourself. There have been people on this forum who have had transmission fluid in their radiator and no coolant in their transmission. So make of that what you will. This has nothing to do with you blown head gasket question but perhaps you have 2 problems.
I was offering a suggestion to you, I won't make that mistake again.

I really do appreciate your response and I am open to suggestions it just struck me as very strange as I would think the water pressure would be greater than the transmission fluid pressure (I could be wrong here as well) and as soon as the car gets up to temp the water under pressure would blow back into the transmission lines and how could this happen without water escaping to the atmosphere unless of course there is a transmission cooler pipe encased in a water channel in the radiator itself and I thought they although both in the radiator were physically separate.
The post by VPcalias38 explains the situation perfectly and I stand corrected.
It still doesn't explain the water coming out my exhaust which is obviously getting into the combustion chamber somehow and there is no water in the oil.
Maybe I have 3 problems
1 ignorance
2 water in the combustion chamber
3 trans fluid in the cooling water
cheers rileyp

[Pub247]

Heads are also known to crack between valves not saying this is your problembut could be possible. I'd start by replacing inlet manifold gaskets and see if problem persists. If it does i would then remove heads and check gaskets for signs of leakage. Check the heads for cracks should be visible due to the fact they have to be quite large to reach water. Rust and water residue in ports, chambers or cylinder will help indentify which cylinder is leaking.

Also is there any overheating issue?

[accentstencil]

I really do appreciate your response and I am open to suggestions it just struck me as very strange as I would think the water pressure would be greater than the transmission fluid pressure (I could be wrong here as well) and as soon as the car gets up to temp the water under pressure would blow back into the transmission lines and how could this happen without water escaping to the atmosphere unless of course there is a transmission cooler pipe encased in a water channel in the radiator itself and I thought they although both in the radiator were physically separate.
The post by VPcalias38 explains the situation perfectly and I stand corrected.
It still doesn't explain the water coming out my exhaust which is obviously getting into the combustion chamber somehow and there is no water in the oil.
Maybe I have 3 problems
1 ignorance
2 water in the combustion chamber
3 trans fluid in the cooling water
cheers rileyp

I appreciate your reply and I hope you solve your problem(s) soon.
Maybe it isn't tranny fluid in the radiator, it may well be an additive, but the pink colour made me think transmission fluid.

[VPCalais38]

Do you know any mechanics?

In our workshop the boys have a chemical test thing for o2 levels in the radiator.

I havent seen it in use, but basically they put a coloured chemical in a little container and attach this to the radiator filler (I think).
If there is excessive c02 in the radiator it changes colour and indicates a leak from combustion chamber into the water.

A radiator place may pressure test it for you cheap or even for free as the Natrad here do free pressure tests from time to time. Although I dont know if this is a good thing to do if you suspect a leak into the transmission lines.

Sorry if it sounded like was having a go at you. I assure you I wasnt. Just throwing ideas your way to help you out.

[rileyp]

I didnt even consider the thought VPcalias.
Anyway I got bored about two hours ago and put my socket set to work...
Needless to say a picture says a thousand words.
Im thinking the intake gasket has failed

and
Yuk!


and the radiator fluid.....



cheers rileyp

[accentstencil]

That is quite a mess you've got there. Hopefully it didn't do too much damage.

[jas98]

yeh looks to be the problem...dunno about the water color though.....after you replace the gasket and its all back together you will need to flush the oil with some new stuff (cheap stuff will do) then drop oil and refill with some more new stuff (better quality .....if you want) as there is a fair amount of water in the oil by the looks

[rileyp]

and its all back together you will need to flush the oil with some new stuff (cheap stuff will do) then drop oil and refill with some more new stuff (better quality .....if you want) as there is a fair amount of water in the oil by the looks

Yeah thats exactly what I will do.
Anyone know of a engine flush agent you can add or similar?
Ive removed the radiator just then and will back flush it tomorrow arvo and
Ill have a crack at pressure testing the transmission cooler built into the radiator while its out as well
heres pic of the gaskets


They are so hard and brittle I think the motor may have been cooked.....
cheers rileyp

[VPCalais38]

Wow!!

Those gaskets are plastic yeh?
That thing looks to have gotten mighty hot at some stage.
The gasket is warped something shocking. I would be inclined to remove the heads and have a look see while your this far. It's not gonna hurt to chuck a couple of new head gaskets on it.
But thats me.

In fact I would tear it down as far as I could and clean it all up.
Or change the oil every week for the next few weeks.

Amazes me how much gunk these engines can have inside them and still keep running. I am going to go compression check my old motor cause althought the odo reckons 340,000 the inside of my old motor is just stained brown but not sludge build up at all.
Good to see you have found the problem. I myself would look further still. Althought I have never heard of a V6 doing a head gasket. Thats Ford 6 cylinder territory :P

Run a straight edge across your intake manfold where it bolts to the heads too. They may be warped.......

And it wouldnt hurt to drop the oil and do a filter swap in the auto too. Just in case. Of course if the auto took some water it may still be in the system after an oil change on the auto (In the torque convertor etc).
It soon adds up hey :P

Then again I worry a bit too much about some stuff :P

[jas98]

Wow!!

Those gaskets are plastic yeh?
That thing looks to have gotten mighty hot at some stage.
The gasket is warped something shocking. I would be inclined to remove the heads and have a look see while your this far. It's not gonna hurt to chuck a couple of new head gaskets on it.
But thats me.

well the gaskets are a hard plastic thats the way they are designed..as for them warping they do that over time....basically every vn-vs and up wards that hasn't had these gaskets changed recently will have similar looking gaskets when taken off ....just the way these commodores are lol mine were similar on me vn but it didnt have any tell tail signs of it leaking into the cylinders though

[VPCalais38]

The gaskets I pulled off my current motor (148,000km's) looked nothing like that. They werent warped anyway. I know they are plastic but yeh I didnt think they would warp that badly.