VS stops dead on half a tank of fuel! Please help!
I've had my 1996 VS Acclaim for a year now and nothing seemed wrong with it until about two months ago when it wouldn't start for me at a shopping centre. It worked fine for a few weeks until it suddenly stopped dead at random places. It continued for a week to stop and start until I took it to a mechanic who immediatly replaced the Fuel Pump and the Fuel Filter. It worked fine for a day until it stopped working. The car was rtaken back to them and they couldn't find what was wrong with it and told me to simply 'keep a half a tank of fuel or more in at all times to fix it'. It continued to stop and start for three weeks and then I thought it might be the Crank Angle Sensor. I had that replaced, and it still continued to do it.
Through a series of events that same day, I had to replace the Alternator and the Battery. Didn't fix problem.
Put $20 of fuel in and car worked fine, it continued to work fine the next day,until it stopped dead at a set of lights. This time it was worse, car was stopping every 100 metres or so.
A few days later, the car got that bad that it had to be physically pushed around the corner from my house because it wouldn't start. Put $15 of fuel in and car worked fine. I've put almost $100 of fuel in the car in the last week just to keep it above half way. Is anyone else having the same problem? Or any suggestions on how to fix the problem would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, lifes_telephone.
the easy way would be to drain the fuel tank seams like it may have water in there.or the tank sender is not working correctly. or methelated spirits will dispert the water but it would take a bit to get rid of half a tank
You would think that if the mechanics replaced the fuel pump they would have had to drain the tank to get the pump out.So it should not have water in it.If it has you should go and see them about it.They should have checked for things like that before replacing fuel pumps etc.Try doing an error check,heres the link to instructions on how to do this.---Checking error codes VR/VS (Revised)---It sounds like the CAS (Crank Angle Sensor).The symptoms you describe are similar to what happens when the CAS stuffs up.What type of CAS did you fit.Ive seen brand new aftermarket CAS's cause trouble from new.We fitted the CAS,had the same problems still,then after hours of stuffing around and finding nothing obviously wrong we fitted a genuine holden CAS and the car has run perfectly ever since.If the CAS was not a genuine holden part,theres a small chance it might be faulty from new like the one we had.As mentioned in the above post try putting a cup of metho to your fuel tank(have the tank about half full).It wont hurt anything,the metho just lets any water or moisture in your tank mix with the fuel so it can get burned off in the combustion process.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 03-04-2010 at 05:50 PM.
Real cars are steel cars.
Sounds like a fault with the swirl pot inside the tank. The mechanic may have yanked on the intank return line when the new pump was fitted. This may prevent the returning fuel from keeping the swirl pot (where the pump draws fuel) full. Over about half full the fuel just pours over the top of the pot (its like a small ice cream container) so the pump always has fuel to draw.
The only way to fix it is to replace the tank.
For a mechanic to tell you "just keep more than half a tank in it to fix it" is the biggest load of $hit. Damn slack. You have paid to have a problem fixed, and so it should be. Mechanics like that are the ones who give the trade a bad name. I would suggest where he could jam the fuel pump. *rants*
When I bought my VS wag the previous owner told me to never let it get below 1/4 full or it may cut out. As I was aware of what kills a VS, I immediatley replaced the crank sensor and fuel pump. Someone had already done the pump and I noticed the pickup/sender unit was a little bent, so I bent it back. Then I ended up with the problem you describe, cuts out at half tank. After re bending the sender a few times, I replaced the tank. Fixed.
If I told you I was a compulsive liar, would you believe me?
The swirl pot shouldnt effect it when its half full.The pump doesnt pick up its fuel up from the swirl pot. The swirl pot is there to stop the fuel in the tank that the pump is picking up being aerated and swirled around by the fuel thats being returned to the tank..The returned fuel is released into the swirl pot.Theres some good pics somewhere on here of the swirl pot where someone cut their tank open,and fixed their return line.A good example is get a bucket or tub and put a hose into it along the side,then turn it on.The water will swirl around and go up the sides of the bucket,and leaves a "hole" in the middle.The same thing happens inside the fuel tank.The returning fuel acts like the hose and the fuel ends up swirling up the outsides of the tank and leaves a "hole" in the middle,right where the pump pickup is.So thats why they release it into the swirl pot,which prevents this from happening.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 03-04-2010 at 07:32 PM.
operation HQ under way.
Fuel return line inside tank
im having a simallar issue as well, but mine is happining at 1/4 tank and ive taken my sender out and i have no return hose.
i have since open my tank up as in the above link and added a hose, readjusted my sender unit to show empty when the tank is empy, and re welded. im am awaiting on a new tank anyways becaue i have found too much rust and such in side
The fuel pump and pickup sits inside the swirl pot and the purpose of the swirl pot is to provide a reservoir of fuel to prevent the fuel pick up becoming uncovered during cornering or when the fuel level in the tank is low.
The fuel return line is connected to a venturi at the base of the swirl pot. This high velocity jet of return fuel picks up extra fuel and delivers it to the pot through a tangential passage. This keeps the pot full of fuel irrespective of the level in the tank and the swirling action seperates air and vapour from the fuel.
Clearly if your car cuts out there is air in the fuel lines going to the engine because the swirl pot is no longer connected to the return line.
Last edited by wortus; 03-04-2010 at 09:30 PM.
The swirl pot is not near the pump pickup.Look at where it is situated inside the tank.Theres pics posted on here,and its nowhere near the pickup.I checked it out when I renewed my fuel pump too.My return line ran from the pump assembly to the swirl pot which was near the rear of the tank(sort of) and to one side.The fuel pickup sits closer to the front and middle of the tank.
That was quoted directly from a factory VN service manual volume 6 and I can't see a VR/VS being any different Brett so respectfully I will believe that and you can believe what you think thanks all the same.Originally Posted by Brett_jjj
Real cars are steel cars.
VS has the pump sitting inside the swirl pot.
If I told you I was a compulsive liar, would you believe me?
Well have you actually had a look at the pics or had a look at one?It definitely sits away from the pickup.I thought the same that it sat in it.But once I had seen it,I knew it didnt because it is to far away from the swirl pot..The VN had the return line going into into the tank via a seperate connector on the tank.The VR/VS has the return line going through the pump assembly.
Check out moffmans link above in his post.It has the pics I was talking about that shows the swirl pot in the rear corner of the tank..It shows the fuel pump assembly (which goes straight in ) then it shows the swirl pot in the rear corner of the tank.Theres no way it goes in there.It wouldnt reach that far for starters.The copied page says it seperates air from the fuel so the pump doesnt pick up air.I thought it wound go in it too.When I did my pump I looked at the length and it didnt even look nowhere near long enough to even reach it.Maybe moffman fitted the pump assembly while he had the tank cut open.Maybe he can shed some light on it.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 03-04-2010 at 10:47 PM.
The Holden manual I have says the fuel pump sits in the swirl pot. I have replaced these fuel pumps a few times and they have to be twisted as you insert them thats so they can go into the swirl pot. I have also replaced the tank and looked inside. At the bottom of this post there are links to similar posts which others have said the pump and pickup go into the swirl pot. VT-VZ has a similar setup except the whole lot comes out of the tank.
I know about the twisting to get them in,the pickup goes straight in though,it doesnt go to where the pot even is at.I did mine not to long ago.And I couldnt see how it went over into it,It didnt look long enough to reach it when I held it up against the bottom of the tank.Thats why I was interested in moffmans link on the subject.Hopefully he has a photo of the pump assembly installed while the tank was cut open.
NEED 4 SPEED
Fuel pump is definately in the swirl pot. It has to be lifted out when removing the pump. See my thread already posted in the quote above for some great pics.
Also good to see someone else tackle the same problem as I had. I can even run my car now until the low fuel level alarm comes on.
Real cars are steel cars.
[QUOTE=Brett_jjj;1508879]Well have you actually had a look at the pics or had a look at one? [QUOTE]
Yes I looked.
The pump sits in the swirl pot.
I have replaced enough in tank pumps to know what I'm looking at.
If I told you I was a compulsive liar, would you believe me?
well mate if you are so sure of yourself then I will believe you until I see otherwise.I thought the same thing until I had a look at it and how its set up.It just doesnt look like it will even reach it and is why I wanted to see a photo of a tank cut open with it fitted..
NEED 4 SPEED
Read this
Already mentioned that before.The swirl pot is no where as big as in the drawing though.Its at the rear of the tank to one side.Too bad its not a proper pic.It doesnt even show where the pump sits.Just where it mounts to.
NEED 4 SPEED
That link was posted ages ago.And thats what I was talking about.The swirl pot is in the right rear corner and the fuel pickup goes straight in from the middle and reaches to about the middle of the tank.When I looked at my pickup it didnt bend right and it didnt look like it would reach the rear of the tank and is why I said it doesnt go in it.If Im wrong,then Im wrong,no problem.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 04-04-2010 at 12:27 AM.
Just looking at those pictures and they are of a wagon's fuel tank also the hole is on the right side but the swirl pot is to the left of the hole and looks to be in about the centre of the tank.
Yeah,when I did my sedan pump the swirl pot was to the drivers side at the rear of the tank and the pump went in at about the middle.
operation HQ under way.
the difference between sedan and wagon is about 5 inches with the wagon unit being way longer than the sedan, thats why it looks like the sedan one wont fit in the pictures.
i can garantie 100% that the pump sites in the swirl pot its the same for all vb to vs where in VT onwards they went to a mra (fuel delivery module or module something something) where the pump unit and gauge assy is part of one unit and sits in from the top (going off topic but)
essentially the swirl pot only works from 1/4 tank down where fuel can no longer overflow in to the swirl pot, and needs to be picked up through the venturi
getting back to the original question 1/2 tank should be enough fuel to have a non issue with the swirl pot, what it could be is a stuffed pump, blocked filter, or something completely different. trying to diagnose issues with cars is hard enough but through a forum where you cant even see the car is just crazy most people can just stab in the dark or offer past experiences.
I'm a little better at is because i deal with this sort of stuff daily at work and can offer my experiences but its still the same stabbing in the dark...
my suggestion is to check fuel pressure or if you do not have a gauge, than you might be able to do a flow test. 3L per minute i think is the spec (don't quote me)
I always thought it did too until I looked at mine and I swear it looked way to short to even reach it,and thats why I thought it musn't go in it then..I wonder if the wrong pump assembly could be fitted to mine.I even held it in place under the tank similar to how it sits when it is installed and it still didnt look long enough to reach.It reached about half way towards the rear of the tank.The swirl pot was at the rear drivers side of the tank.The pickup didnt even bend to the right and goes into the tank at about the centre of the tank.So thats why I asked if you had a pic of the inside of the tank with the pump assembly fitted while it was cut open.Ive got a tank out of a VR sedan,Im gonna have a look at that and see if its different to my pickup assembly.I might cut the top from the tank and see exactly whats going on with mine.Are the VR and VS tanks the exact same tank,and while on the subject will a VN long range tank fit a VS and will it need the extra external pump to be fitted?This is like sitting here with everyone is telling me that a square peg fits a round hole.It has to be a different pump assembly fitted to mine.I will get some pics and post them when I sus it out further.I had a similar thing happen not long ago.My diff does not have the oil drain hole in the lower bolt hole.It is just metal inside it once the bolt is removed,and does not go all the way through,but some people swore black and blue that they all have them and ripped me because I said it didnt have one.When I had another look at it just to be 100% sure,it was definitely not there.So some had them and some didnt I guess.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 04-04-2010 at 12:33 PM.
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote
