Engine has a miss.
Hi,I posted about this ages ago and have still not found the answer to my problem.When my car(VS-V6) sits for more than 24 hours or so it gets a miss on a couple of cylinders for a few seconds when first started up.If it has been sitting for say 10 - 15 hours it starts perfectly,but longer than 24 hours it gets this annoying miss.The car starts and runs perfectly at any other time,just gets this miss when sitting for more than 24 hours.Ive replaced the coils,leads and plugs more than once since it started happening and there has been no difference.Ive also replaced the ECU so its not that.I thought it might be the temp sensor but wouldnt it effect it when its cold all the time.The engine would definitely be cold after 15 hours not running.But it will start fine after just 15 hours,its just when it sits for more than 24 hours it happens.Any ideas .Thankyou.
Woodgrain Nut
NGK.Ive always used NGK in all my bikes and cars.Ive done a couple of plug changes and it still does it.I wonder if maybe I should try another brand.The engine runs so well .I get excellent economy anmd when it is held flat throught he gears it is certainly not the slowest car in the world,it revs out with no hesitiation or anything.It goes pretty well actually for a "nearly" standard V6.It just has this annoying problem with the miss.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 14-04-2010 at 03:09 PM.
"..of mice and men.."
This may not be the cause, but it does sound 'similar' to a slow valve oil seal leak.
When it sits for a long enough period, a small amount of oil 'may' be seeping past one of the valve seals, and in to one of the cylinders.
This would give it a slight miss, since one cylinder would not be firing or burning properly.
Only reason I say is that I think is what's happening to my VR, plus my number 1 spark plug would always foul up, very black and sooty, compared to all the others.
And only do this if sitting longer than one whole day.
Have you happened to notice if weather there is slightly more, and lighter coloured smoke from the exhaust than normal, the longer it has sat without being started?
On the 7th day, God created Holden, then on the 8th day, God created Ford, to keep idiots out of Holden's.
Originally Posted by destiny
Very common problem when the KM's get over 300,000 my sedan does it too.
Donating Member
I'd guess at a very small head or valley cover gasket leak that dribbles enough coolant (maybe only 3 or 4 mls) into the combustion chamber. This can be enough to foul one or more of the plugs until they heat up and burn/evaporate the coolant. The test of this is close inspection of the plug nose. Good Luck.
The engine does not use any coolant or oil.The spark plugs are all the same colour,a sort of grey to tanny brown colour,and they all look healthy.The engine has done 140,000 km.It was a reconditioned engine from redlands in brisbane.There is no smoke or steam from the exhaust on startup either.I thought about something leaking into the cylinders so I had already checked that out.Plus it should show up on the plugs.Cylinder compression is good too.It has got me stuffed.
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what about your battery and connections? does anything take power from it whilst your car is off? it could be something with a low draw of power say the immobiliser or something
Hi
The coils that you Replaced,Are they From Holden(the Part)?
Also you can't have a miss and say that you checked the spark plugs and the spark plugs have no indication of fouling..
Which comes to, You have an other problem with your car and its not a miss.
Hope it help
Cheers Rafmed
Real cars are steel cars.
Mine used to do something very similar to this. Missfire on startup firt thing in the morning. All other times it was fine.
Car is in good nick. New manifold gasket, NGK plugs and good leads, clean filters etc. Injectors cleaned and flow checked.
Only did it premium fuel. Seemed like a leaky injector but they had just been done and i thought how could it be the fuel????
Pulled a plug before startup and bingo, dripping with fuel.
Back to 91RON and no more dramas.
If I told you I was a compulsive liar, would you believe me?
The coils are genuine holden ones replaced around 2 years ago.I tried another working set and the car did the same thing.And its definitely missing.It runs rough as guts and sounds crook and then after a few seconds you can hear and feel the cylinder(s) that arent firing pick up and start firing,engine idle smooths out and then its all ok then runs perfect.Its just the first few seconds of startup after sitting.Also thought about the brand of fuel,I always use the same brands of premium shell vpower and BP ultimate,sometimes caltex vortex98 ,Ive also tried some of the e10 stuff ,still happened exactly the same no matter what brand is used.I will try it again though,I will get some normal unleaded and see what happens.And the battery is good.It winds over no worries,and fairly quickly so I doubt it would be a battery connection problem.Tech 1 doesnt show anything out of the ordinary either.Im just gonna have to start replacing stuff again until I find what is causing it.Maybe try another DFI module,and I dont know if the crank angle sensor could cause this,it shows all the sensors are normal on the tech1.Ive been over the wiring and connections,everything is fine and connected properly.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 15-04-2010 at 07:21 AM.
:):):)
you say its only for a few seconds on start then it could be drain of battery and is not getting enuf power as chris says,
also as hako, bones and RX25SE said there is a leak into one of the cylinders. for sure
Yeah,but its only after sitting for 24 hours or longer.If it sits for say 15 - 20 hours it starts perfectly so it cant be a temperature issue.If it was battery drain it would happen at every start.If it was a fuel leak into the cylinders it should show up as black smoke on startup from excess fuel in the cylinders,and the plugs should be wet when removed after it has been sitting and they are dry and theres no smell of fuel either,if it was coolant it would show up on the plugs and the compression would be down,and steam should come from the exhaust .Theres just no signs of any of these things. The engine never hardly uses any coolant just the normal amount any car uses,like maybe 200ml or so over summer and none at all during winter.I have checked out everything heaps of times,I have been trying to solve this for months now.Ive also ran a power balance test on the tech1 where it shuts down each cylinder one at a time and shows the rpm drop for each cylinder and this test shows its fine,each cylinder is sharing the load,they are all have similar rpm drop readings,so theres no "lazy" cylinders showing up.Im going to go buy some new injectors today so I will see if they are the problems I mentioned the engine has 140,000 km on it ,but the car has done 390,000 km.The injectors might be the original ones.Thanks for the help everone,if anyone can think of anything else ,let me know.I will post how it goes with these injectors.Does anyone know roughly how much holden charge for a set of injectors.I only like to use genuine parts.Unless theres a good brand of injector just as good as holdens genuine stuff that I can get.Can anyone recommend any.Thanks
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 15-04-2010 at 11:04 AM.
Oil leak at valve seal was my immediate thought too. You must remember there will be pressure to prevent the oil leak whilst engine is running. The possible dead leak is minor too, so it is not a notable oil usage thing either!
"..of mice and men.."
True, it only take the tiniest dribble of oil to make it misfire, because it dilutes the fuel/air mix 'just' enough to stop the cylinder from producing a clean burn.
This tiny amount of oil would never be noticeable as a loss on the dipstick, be like trying to define a single drop of water, in a bucket full.
EDIT: I should of said 'contaminates', not dilutes..
Last edited by BoNeZ-01; 15-04-2010 at 11:31 AM. Reason: correction
On the 7th day, God created Holden, then on the 8th day, God created Ford, to keep idiots out of Holden's.
A good test to see if the valve seals are leaking is to let the engine idle for about 5 -10 minutes (at operating temp),then open the throttle quickly to about 3000- 4000 rpm and hold it there steady.If the engine blows a heap of smoke out the exhaust ,but then clears itself,the valve seals are leaking.If the smoke continues and does not change it is worn rings/pistons/bores that are the problem.My engine runs perfectly clean at startup,not a whisp of smoke,nothing.If there was oil in the cylinders it would have to show up in the exhaust as smoke at startup.Plus you would also be able to smell it burning.
"..of mice and men.."
Hmm.. This one is a head scratcher, I guess try the new injectors, if nothing else at least that will eliminate them as a cause or not.
Only other thing I could think of to try would be to somehow inspect each cylinder, after the car has sat without starting for a day or two.
Use something like a piece of thin hose or tube, with a clean piece of cloth over the end.
Remove the plugs, and try to wipe it around inside the bore and on the tops of the pistons, to see if you can pick anything up?
That will eliminate any possibility of fuel, oil or coolant leakage.
On the 7th day, God created Holden, then on the 8th day, God created Ford, to keep idiots out of Holden's.
Yeah thanks mate,I will do the injectors and try exactly what you have said about checking each cylinder for fluids with a clean cloth.Its certainly been a pain trying to figure it out.If there was smoke at startup or steam from the exhaust,or if it were using coolant etc it would be fairly easy but there has been no telltale signs of anything wrong.
Last edited by Brett_jjj; 15-04-2010 at 12:45 PM.
"..of mice and men.."
Yeah no worries mate, will be interesting to see the outcome, post us back when you have it all sorted, and find out what it was.
Might help someone else with the same/similar problem.
On the 7th day, God created Holden, then on the 8th day, God created Ford, to keep idiots out of Holden's.
Today when I first started it it was real bad,I didnt think it was going to go at all,it popped and spluttered and I had to wind it over heaps of times to get it going,took about 5 minutes of trying.When it finally started there was no smoke or steam out the exhaust,nothing,not a trace,I had 3 people looking at it for me.Once it started it cleared itself as it usually does, then it was running fine after a few seconds.This is really weird.It is doing the things you would expect it to do when something is leaking into the cylinders ,but nothing shows up at the exhaust when it starts.Theres just no sign anywhere.It did the exact same thing to me ages ago after it sat for 2 days (took 5 minutes to get it going)but it only sat overnight this time,so its slowly getting worse.I couldnt get into town to get some injectors,I will get them tomorrow so I will post how it goes then once I fit them.Has anyone got an idea of the price of a set of injectors roughly?
Real cars are steel cars.
I think we are all on the right track with something getting into the combustion chamber over time.
Fuel could be ruled out as the plugs were removed and were clean with no smell. (mine were wet but startup showed no black smoke)
Oil should show some white smoke.
Coolant??
Maybe drain the coolant (pain in the backside) as soon as you can after shutdown and start it up the next day with no coolant in it?
or
Shut down the motor during the poor running and pull the plugs for a look?
If I told you I was a compulsive liar, would you believe me?
i had i vs with a miss a couple of months back that i had to fix for a lady i fitted new plugs didnt fix it new leads didnt fix it another coilpack didnt fix it i changed the fuel rail with all injectors still the same i then replaced the inlet manifold gaskets and still no joy the only thing left was my least favorite option that i had been putting off till last i had to change the rh cylinder head and that fixed it. now this may have nothing to do with your problem as this miss didnt clear itself up at all when warm but it was still drivable and making good power. good luck with it.
Have you done the fuel filter yet?
also to identify a misfiring cylinder i will while running individually unplug each injector plug and listen to weather it changes the way it runs then put it back on and try the next one this works well to figure out which cylinder has the problem if you find one that makes no difference on or off then it has a problem weather it be plug, lead, coil, injector, or a doggy valve you have at least found a starting point.
the other thing i can remember being a problem making them take ages to start was with the fuel rail or one of its components maybe the fuel regulator i think it was letting the fuel drain back and you would have to crank it for ages to get it to fire up again.
i had i vs with a miss a couple of months back that i had to fix for a lady i fitted new plugs didnt fix it new leads didnt fix it another coilpack didnt fix it i changed the fuel rail with all injectors still the same i then replaced the inlet manifold gaskets and still no joy the only thing left was my least favorite option that i had been putting off till last i had to change the rh cylinder head and that fixed it. now this may have nothing to do with your problem as this miss didnt clear itself up at all when warm but it was still drivable and making good power. good luck with it.
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