front end alignment issues (toe out perhaps) and also getting the damn thing to turn!

[old mate]

hi everyone,

got a question regarding my front end. i haven't driven any other lowered vs's so i'm not sure if this is a trait they have when you drop them (only got lows and unknown shocks).

it seems to follow the contours of the road pretty bad, worse under brakes. but on a flat piece of road its fine and stable. its wearing out the insides of both fronts a bit too.

the tyres are nexen n7000's with about 22,000 kays on them, not on the indicators but theres a few mm difference from inside to outside on the fronts.

it leads me to think that it could be toe-ing out as its pretty sharp once you start a turn, but slighly vague at the dead ahead position.

but if i go for a pretty brisk spin though the hills the outside edge of the tyre seems to look like it melts :O and it feel vague mid corner.

so turn in is sharp, then it goes to mush in the front. not ideal but i know these aren't great handling cars to start with (weight distrobution of the ute is like 65/35). it must be noted that the rear sits higher than the front, probably magnifying the sharp feel at turn in.

anyone got some thoughts?

cheers.

[Zeussy]

Have you had a wheel alignment done lately?
Hit any gutters, hard bumps etc..?

[old mate]

no gutters or hard bumps, i might as well get an alignment done anyway but this set of tyres is pretty worn to the alignment now. so its going to be hard to get right until i get a new set of rubber.

[Zeussy]

Did you get an alignment done when you fitted the nexen n7000's? (I always get an alignment done when I fit new tyres, good habit to get into )
Pretty sure I had them on my car at some point, and got a fair few more kays then 22,xxx.

MAYBE Take it to a mechanic/suspension place and get them to give it a check over, could be some bushes flogged out under there? (or ask the tyre fitters to check it out when you get new tyres down the track, although, sometimes its better to get someone to lok at it that knows what they're doing!!)

[slayer208]

Do the wheel alignment, and work from there. Other possibilities if the wheel alignment doesn't fix it is warn lower balljoints, possibly but unlikely tie-rod ends and very possibly either bad pre-load on the steering rack arms or worn internal gearing in the steering rack. Had a simmilar thing happen to the VK i used to own. Replaced all the balljoints, tie rods and steering rack. That resolved the problems for me and never had trouble with it since.

Regards!

[RX25SE]

Worn/soft caster bushes will make it unstable under brakes.

[skootaroo]

Your description of your turn in is more like excessive toe in, think about it, you're snow ploughing along and it doesn't want to turn until it lifts a little weight off the inside front, then she really wants to turn. The opposite would be the inside front initiates the turn then the weight comes off it and the outside front is still pointing straight ahead, this would feel skittish in the dead ahead position and more docile further into the turn.
It is realy easy to check anyway, measure the distance between the fronts and backs of your front tyres. Drive your car onto two sheets of newspaper, and place a square of some sort against your tyre, I have used a 20L oil drum before and mark its position on the paper, and then measure across to the other side.
If you are going to get a wheel alignment anyway, change your toe ajustment and find what you like then you have some information to give to the person doing your alignment!

[old mate]

yeah i got an alignment when i put the tyres on originally, so they might have made a mistake there. when the tyres were first on it drove really nicely and didn't deflect off anything. at the end of tyre life of my last set of rubber which was falken ze912's and they ended up the same way. i might chuck the ute up on our hoist at home when dad gets his car off there and have a look around. its now done nearly 249,000 kays and i'm unsure on the service life its had as i've only had it since 227,000 kays. the previous owner was the one who lowered it and put it on the vt ss rims though.

when looking at the car when it sits there at rest with the wheels dead ahead, it looks like theres a fair whack of negative camber compared to other commodores i see. i might measure it tomorrow doing an old trick with a spirit level, tape measure and a calculator. just to get an approx measurement.

i do think it could have a worn steering rack though, its just a feeling i have.

edit: its not that when the weight changes it gets hard into the turn, i think the vague feeling is just at straight ahead, but as soon as you tip it into the corner it wants to keep turning and then the back comes around so you have to catch that before mid corner. so initally its oversteery then pushes the nose wide after its settled. lift off oversteer is very common also. thats what is leading me to think its toe out, as its sharp in the front. but this could be with the rear being higher than the front, as that makes the car a bit more oversteery doesn't it?

[Zeussy]

Look at the lower inner control arm bushes, they can flog out, espescially on lowered cars. Just get a big pry bar when its up on the hoist, (stick it in between the control arm and the crossmember see if theres any movement in there)

If its been lowered, could it be that it has excessive - camber on the fronts? Needing adjustable strut tops to give it the extra adjustment? That alone will wear out the inners on the tyres,

But, IMO, before you go changing out the rack, check over all the bushes, strut tops/bearings, and as mentioned the front radius rod/'Z' bar bushes always wear out, rear radius rod bushes, lower inner control arm bushes, lower ball joints and sway bar links.
If its got that many kays on it, and nothings ever been changed (not sure if it has? previous owner, might have?) it wouldn't hurt to rebuild the front end anyway.

You can get all the bushes you'd need in a kit, although I'd reccomend a combination of some polyurethane and some rubber.

Just done the front end in my VY, all the bushes/ball joints etc cost just over $400, installed them myself. I rekon I should've done it a long time ago seeing how it feels now! (The VY felt really flogged out, and used to 'pull' hard half way through a turn at anything above 60km/h. I thought it could've been the rack worn a bit, but since doing the bushes the rack seems fine! )

[old mate]

its only on kings lows, so the camber should be able to be kept in the adjustment range as people on super lows seem to do ok. adjustable strut tops are handy though, i've got them in my vb commodore as i was getting too much neg camber for the street. nearly polished a set of tyres of in 5,000 kays!

yeah sway bar links and bushes always wear fast with lowered commodores, even factory fe2 ones. i remember when i did work exp with the local holden dealers and i had to do a few of them in the week that i was there.

[old mate]

alright, decided to bodgy up a way of measuring toe on the front, and it had major amounts of toe out. like stupid amounts. i think it would be safe to assume that toe was never adjusted when it was lowered, as when the suspension compresses toe goes out more due to tie rod end angles??

what i used was an extendable bar that i stuck between the rims at the front, set the length then tried to fit it at the rear at the same position when at rest. not a bad way of doing it on the cheap. i couldnt be stuffed setting up stringlines n crap so this was just a quick attempt at getting it in the ballpark.

so made it pretty neutral (neither in or out) and its alot better, not as sharp at dead ahead (as expected) but less tiresome on the road. also under braking it is more stable (havent really had too much limit braking yet, might go try it out) as the toe out increases when the front compresses, so you can imagine what a handful it was. i havent had it up in the hills or given it a hard time to see how it feels around the limit yet, so im not sure if i will stay neutral o

will monitor the tyre life to see any changes.

[Brett_jjj]

As well as checking the front bushes for wear,check the rear end upper and lower control arm bushes and panhard rod bushes for wear too.These can make the car handle like a bowl of jelly when they are worn.When I first bought my VS it was terrible.I fitted all new FE2 springs and genuine struts/shocks along with nolothane bushes,and now the car handles 100 times better.A good wheel alignment can make all the difference ,so dont skimp out on that.Go to a well known wheel/tyre/alignment place.Get it rechecked every 12 months.