Rockers upgrade
hey all , currently have modded my commodore v6 with 2.5" sports exhaust with highflow cats and mufflers stage 2 shiftkit and extractors had it tuned i was wondering if high ratio rollerrockers would give me abit more power without going crazy and getting a cam and changing diff gears are they really worth it or not really cheers any input would be great cheers in advance
Hand over the dog bikkies
The rockers are definitely worth it. I noticed you have a VS? If that's the case also look at getting some plenum spacers from the site sponsor Mace. Should help a bit.
Welcome to the internet where people have opinions that you might not like
Tech
Really have to think about this - lots of problems in the past with cam bearings in the V6 any extra load is only going to make it worse - I would be going with another cam & memcal package & replace the timing chain with a double row & disable the balance shaft.Originally Posted by tiersum
The manifold spacer only lengthens the inlet ports - cooling does BA - if you fit a bell mouth inside you can go even longer & get more power.
I am running 3.7 ratio diff & it works great - you also have to fit a speedo conversion in at the Trans so the ecu & speedo knows whats going on
Hand over the dog bikkies
What the hell are you on about? The whole point is to give you that bit more runner space and plenum space. Cooling isn't really what it's for... If you were to do as you say, you would be looking at close to 3k. Yeah not going crazy.... Hopefully Steve from Mace sees this thread and has a few words. He's the man when it comes to V6 modifications.
Welcome to the internet where people have opinions that you might not like
RESPECT!
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Last edited by IMCRZY; 09-12-2010 at 10:29 PM.
I WISH MY GRASS WAS EMO SO IT WOULD CUT ITSELF
Tech
Sit there & laugh - Do what you will - I don't really care & I couldn't give a FF what Mace thinks as they (if they where engineers) would have to agree - but in 12 months time when your motors shot - because it has no oil pressure - I will be sitting here saying I told you so & if your paying three grand for a cam & timing chain - you need a new mechanic. Go have a look at any engine reconditioning shop at the cam bearings being flogged out with normal use alone. Heaps of cabs here have had to replace motors alone because of this problem. By fitting different ratio roller rockers & especially valve springs - your loading up the camshaft - it creates a hell of a lot more load on the bearings & the camshaft. I know what I an talking about as I have the qualifications which is 30 odd years of working on all sorts of vehicles & having my own shop for 14 of those. I have seen the problems - where are your qualifications to comment ????
Tech
The point of the Bell mouths is because the spacer only goes so far 12mm or whatever & if you have your motor in something else - such as a Hilux like I do - you cant fit one because of the bonnet clearance - with a bell mouth inside you can go much further than 12 mm & get even better benefits than what the spacer will give you - if you do not understand that then your not as smart as you make out...
Tech
You don't need more plenum space - you need longer runners & the bell mouths will give you far more length than the spacer & far better results - I can't fit a spacer as I have no bonnet clearance left
Cammed & Eventualy Blown!
Getting back on track here, i had 1.98.1 yellaterra rockers on my vs and they were deff worth it, one of the best bolt ons for the ecotec, i had them on for over 3 yrs and no problems
ＯＮＥＤＯＬＬＡＨＯＬＬＡ
Can you explain about bellmouths in ecotecs?
I know what a bellmouth is but I dont understand the concept, you have one for each intake hole on the manifold? If it gives you more runner length could it be combined with the spacers to give you even more again?
Donating Member
i've had my 1.9:1 rockers in my VS for 4 years and no issues yet so far.
i can understand where your coming from, but i know its when you change to heavier valve springs they put extra pressure on everything else.
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Wanted: VR/VS Standard Rear Bumper Bar - Can be damaged - PM me if you have one
Tech
Yes correct - the object is to increase runner length & improve flow into the runner - this gives more torque - which is the power you feel when accelerating from idle. So yes if you fitted bell mouths inside it would give better flow into the runner & it would extend the length - if you fitted a spacer as well - you would get increased torque yet again. You would have to get the manifold machined to take them.
Tech
It may not happen now or in the near future - but it will happen - its a common problem with std stuff - so any extra load will cause problems in the longer term - it has to - all I am saying is be aware of the consequences - especially if you have a sad motor already. The other thing is that the timing chain tensioners break - the chains flog out & before fitting any extra load to your cam you should fit a double row timing chain first - the biggest increase in power is having your cam aligned correctly - no one could argue with that. Your also increasing acceleration slightly by removing the balance shaft - In my experience the cam is mostly retarded in the V6 engine with the tensioner taking up the slack - with a double row timing chain it doesn't need a tensioner as its always aligned correctly & the free play is minimal & it rarely wears at all.
Donating Member
i dont aurge with going cam and all the goodies to match. but for ~$500 for rockers now, and then saving up for a cam & goodies in a couple of years, i see no issues with. the cam and parts can be had for cheap but in the end its the labour which makes it expensive.
bpefi: just for reference, you can multiquote using the last button quote with + signon the post you want to quote
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Wanted: VR/VS Standard Rear Bumper Bar - Can be damaged - PM me if you have one
[QUOTE=bpefi;1722526]Sit there & laugh - Do what you will - I don't really care & I couldn't give a FF what Mace thinks QUOTE]
Now thats just charming that is,take a step down off ya high-horse mate.No need to bring MACE into the argument,they are not the only ones who make rockers.
Your badluck stories dont make what you are saying a "given".The success stories far out way your horror stories.Pesamistic much........
Jump over to the L67.torque forum and shoot off their,I gurantee you your "theory" will be shotdown(by people with plenty of runs on the board) with evidence of stock L67's with boost and rockers running numerous burnout comps(untuned) and still on the original engine.Alot are bloody well trying to grenade there engines to go forged lol.
Get of the Bundy mate......
VIP Member
Hang on. Before you start making accusations or claims, make sure you can back it up with evidence. The Insulation material used by MACE is a composite material which is thoroughly heat resistant. You can't sit here and say their products do FA when it is a legitimate Australian business selling a proven product....Do you have have any idea of the consequences for false advertising or claiming a product does XYZ when it really doesn't????
Point I'm making is, you can't sit here and say it does FA when it is a proven product, both in the manufacturing, development, and the consumer review.
I have both MACE insulators on my car and they keep the manifold alot cooler, throttle response/torque has improved as well. Alot of people might say they do FA because they didn't see a 400kw gain out of them...very novice and naiive car modifyers opinion.
You do not have to replace valve springs for most rockers....MACE 1.98 or FIT 1.97 or YT 1.95, some of the highest ratio's out there do not require a spring upgrade. If you do require a spring upgrade for a higher ratio or to pair with a cam/rocker package or a modified head, then other parts need to be replaced as well...common sense? Or doing things properly not ####ed up backyard jobs.
Show some dyno torque and power readouts to prove yourself.
Plenum spacer increases Plenum volume, which slows down air inside the chamber and hence yields more efficient and more effective air distribution to the runners.
I noticed a greater band of torque and greater throttle response, not to mention a cooler intake using the MACE insulators/spacers....they don't do anything????
Yes as soon as you start replacing parts with newer, performance orientated parts, it will create more wear, depends on previous motor condition, driving style, useage, maintenance etc.
Roller rockers are a proven mod, they are not the be all and end all. Camshafts obviously yield greater power/torque...is it really necessary to fit a double row timing chain and remove the balance shaft unless you are going for a complete engine overhaul/build??
You have some flaws in your logic, and you should also be very wary about how you present an argument against a site sponsor, with proven products, with very favorable customer reviews. Present your views certainly, but respectfully and have some evidence to back it up.
Tech
Hang on. Before you start making accusations or claims, make sure you can back it up with evidence. The Insulation material used by MACE is a composite material which is thoroughly heat resistant. You can't sit here and say their products do FA when it is a legitimate Australian business selling a proven product....Do you have have any idea of the consequences for false advertising or claiming a product does XYZ when it really doesn't????
Point I'm making is, you can't sit here and say it does FA when it is a proven product, both in the manufacturing, development, and the consumer review.
I have both MACE insulators on my car and they keep the manifold alot cooler, throttle response/torque has improved as well. Alot of people might say they do FA because they didn't see a 400kw gain out of them...very novice and naiive car modifyers opinion.
You do not have to replace valve springs for most rockers....MACE 1.98 or FIT 1.97 or YT 1.95, some of the highest ratio's out there do not require a spring upgrade. If you do require a spring upgrade for a higher ratio or to pair with a cam/rocker package or a modified head, then other parts need to be replaced as well...common sense? Or doing things properly not ####ed up backyard jobs.
Show some dyno torque and power readouts to prove yourself.
Plenum spacer increases Plenum volume, which slows down air inside the chamber and hence yields more efficient and more effective air distribution to the runners.
I noticed a greater band of torque and greater throttle response, not to mention a cooler intake using the MACE insulators/spacers....they don't do anything????
Yes as soon as you start replacing parts with newer, performance orientated parts, it will create more wear, depends on previous motor condition, driving style, useage, maintenance etc.
Roller rockers are a proven mod, they are not the be all and end all. Camshafts obviously yield greater power/torque...is it really necessary to fit a double row timing chain and remove the balance shaft unless you are going for a complete engine overhaul/build??
You have some flaws in your logic, and you should also be very wary about how you present an argument against a site sponsor, with proven products, with very favorable customer reviews. Present your views certainly, but respectfully and have some evidence to back it up.
I do not have any flaws in my logic at all thank you - I only say something when I know what I am talking about. Think about this - when you already have a cold air inlet & your doing 4000 rpm the air flying past in the manifold will not be able to pick up any heat at all as it just doesn't have time & it doesn't have enough surface area to transfer the heat.......pure logic.....
The difference that the spacer makes is in the runner length - it is a proven fact that runner length affects where you get power in the rev range - the longer the runner length the more torque - I don't have to prove it - even they will tell you that the thicker spacer works better - you need to do some research.............
If you look at a EF Ford 6 for example their runners below 2400 rpm are two feet long or longer & they have throttle plates that shorten the runner length for over that rpm for top end power. That's a fact.
Yes your correct that you do not have to fit valve springs - I only added that in as that would also load up the Cam bearings
There is no flaws in my logic at all - you don't have to do an engine overhaul to do a timing chain & camshaft.....
It is also a known fact that correct cam timing will improve power - talk to anyone that's had one changed - there is around 6 deg crank shaft timing difference between a mildly worn chain & a double row timing chain fitted correctly. Any extra load on the camshaft will translate into increased load to the timing chain & when a timing chain & tensioner is also a common problem then you need to think about doing it first - especially when the average age of these vehicles is getting much higher nowadays.
I have been respectful but when I get laughed at by people that have no idea of what they are talking about & they do not show respect for my ideas - then I tend to get a bit narley & so would anyone else - especially when I have put so much time into researching the facts - I tend to think outside the square which has made me very successful in my career.
I don't have a problem with the product - except for the fact that I cant fit a spacer to mine as I have no bonnet clearance - I am merely trying to make people aware that they could get further performance from their vehicle by fitting bell mouths - if they still want to fit a spacer I don't have a problem with that at all - just be aware that it is the runner length - not the cooling effect that is giving them the power.
Yes the rockers are a cheap easy upgrade & many other vehicles have the same option but they also don't have the same problems with Camshaft bearings that they do - if the cam bearings fail it will result in a loss of oil pressure which will affect everything in the motor - now an engine overhaul is far more expensive than doing a camshaft & timing chain.
I myself was interested in doing the rocker option - I have just pulled my engine down to investigate a strange noise problem - before I did this I visited many mechanics / engine re conditioners / taxi drivers & wreckers - before doing this to become aware of problems to look out for with the VS V6 engine - every person I spoke to made me aware that camshaft bearings are a problem in these motors. If they are a common problem why would you load them up even more & reduce the engines life ???????
I am just trying to make people aware that they could have problems further down the track if they fit them.
Tech
PS
Hot air actually makes more power as fuel vaporizes better & its easier to ignite - so you get a more complete burn - in a fuel injected N/A motor cold air makes more power as the air is more dense.
The only reason for inter coolers with turbo setups is to bring air temps down to reduce detonation. If you tried to use cold air with a carburetor you would lose power as the fuel would not vaporize properly & get stuck to the inlet walls
Your freedom ends where mine begins
Much lol's to be had reading your first statement.
All those CAI makers must be wrong trying to get cool air from outside the engine bay.
Quick! you should still be able to patent a HAI.
Cold air (within reason) = higher air density = car able to run leaner = more hp.
Hotter air = lower air density = car running rich or having to cut fuel = less hp
That's the simplest way to look at it.
VIP Member
Yes you are correct. The longer runners do aid torque as they play a crucial role in determining where torque comes in the rev range. I was debating your claim that their 'insulation' role does nothing. The two benefits:
- Longer runners for more/earlier torque
- Cooler intake charge by 'insulating'/blocking the heat from the plenum. Cooler air is denser, thus contains more oxygen, thus provides more power when combusted with petrol, i.e. creating a bigger 'explosion' etc etc etc
No you don't need to do a complete engine overhaul to change balance shafts and camshafts...it is a trickier and more time consuming job than installing rockers.
Roller Rockers: Change valve lift ratio
Camshaft: Change valve lift and valve duration ratio
You are correct about cam timing, timing chain and tensioners. Timing is paramount in a motor.
Understandable.
Unfortunate about the bonnet clearance...I am still unsure as to how you are meaning to install bellmouths? Are you talking about fitting bellmouths to the top of the runner ports inside the plenum?
Runner length improves torque yes, provides more of a benefit than the cooling aspect. However, the cooling aspects are also important as I said before, as a cooler manifold means cooler air inside the manifold. Cooler air has alot more oxygen than hot air....i.e. it is 'denser'.
(Think when you are running, it requires alot less effort in cooler air, than it does in hot air - because you are breathing more oxygen with the same effort in cooler air)
Cooler intake charge = Colder air entering manifold = more oxygen for combustion = more power.
The effects are minimal, we are not talking +20kw, but every step helps, particularly with a solid combination of mods.
Yes, camshaft bearings and timing chain issues will affect oil pressure which will 'stuff' the motor.
Rockers provide decent gains for reasonable money. Cams provide solid gains for 'solid' (much more) money. Cam's also require new tunes/timing alterations etc.
To be honest, I have never come across any major camshaft bearing issues with the ECOTEC. I know they are a solid motor and most are pretty reliable. I could be wrong, but I have never really come across any serious underlying production faults which have these common failures....if they are and I just haven't come across them, then I stand corrected.
Fair enough, greater awareness is good...when I hear of someone with a similar problem I will be sure to remember this conversation.
Disagree. As I said above, cold air is more 'dense' with oxygen which is the second part of the combustion mix....more oxygen = more powerful explosion (as long as it's not leaning out) = more power.
Hot air in the combustion stroke means less oxygen which means less fuel can be added than optimum level, thus less powerful combustion stroke = less power.
Cold air is more dense and gives more power,the more air you can shove into the cylinder, the more power you wiill get.(turbo or supercharger anyone).If cold air is denser or thicker,then you will get more air in the cylinder than you would if the air was hot and thinner.Its the same reason turbo engines etc run intercoolers,to cool down the ingoing air charge after its been heated up by going through a red hot turbocharger.Nitrous oxide actually works in a similar way by making the available oxygen in the cylinder charge denser,which then burns better.Nitrous itself is not even a flammable gas..
Tech
Like to know what the joke is - I have already stated that in a N/A injected motor - cold air makes more power or cant you read ???Much lol's to be had reading your first statement.
All those CAI makers must be wrong trying to get cool air from outside the engine bay.
Quick! you should still be able to patent a HAI.
Cold air (within reason) = higher air density = car able to run leaner = more hp.
Hotter air = lower air density = car running rich or having to cut fuel = less hp
That's the simplest way to look at it.
In certain circumstances warm or hot air can make more power depends if its carby / turbo or whatever - if you tried a cold air intake on a carby system it wouldn't work as the carb can freeze up & the fuel wont vaporize. I know as I tried a cold air inlet 25 years ago.
Warm air isn't a problem in a turbo as its forced in & the warm air helps to vaporize & ignite the fuel so that you get a complete burn - you cant burn a liquid - it just goes out the exhaust ........
The phase 3 GTHO had the fresh air "shaker" air intake on the bonnet which went straight into a holley 750,and they never had this problem.Ive used all sorts of air intakes on v8's over the years,and Ive never had a problem with the cold or icing in winter.Now if you lived in a country where it gets to like -20 degrees or lower,then you might have these types of problems.Ive only ever heard of icing/freezing problems like that happening overseas.Some jap cars a few years ago had a hot air stove around the exhaust manifold, this stove had a hose connected to the inlet of the air cleaner,and the air cleaner had a flap which you could move to channel hot air into the air cleaner by switching over the flap positions from cold to hot or summer to winter or whatever they used to say.Same thing,there was no need to use it here in oz.
Tech
I am sorry if I am upsetting anyone here - "but I am old school" I was playing with mechanical fuel injected cars / methanol & speedway cars 35 years ago & done many other awesome things since then - in Australia & overseas - I was always taught that if I was to do anything to increase HP then you sorted out the deficiencies in the motor before you started - I was taught to do the job properly.
Its obvious that I am talking to a different generation that doesn't understand where I am coming from or know much about engines or much worse - have any respect for people.
I came here as I have now retired from the industry & have more time to help others / share my experiences with you all & pass on some of what I have learned from 35 years of working on cars amongst many other things - I can see that my posts are not appreciated - so I will go elsewhere where my skills will be appreciated & respected. I didn't come here to cop smart ass comments from 18 year old children just out of high school. Adios & have a Merry Christmas
I find warm air to be a big problem with my turbo,it actually goes slower beleive it or not.At our dyno with the airtemp probes installed showed power and torque loss ever so slightly as temps rose 5degrees or more.Basically more heatsoak provided less inconsistant power.Same thing goes for the N/A side of things,my SLE with 650d/p thrived on cooler air and always ran quicker times to the 60ft and 1/4 mile.
Do you realise how cold the air has to be to mess with the fuels ability to not ignite properly on individual setups be it forced,n2o or N/A.
Are you refering to certain turbo setups with carburettor having freezing problems or did you mean N/A carby setups,Im confused with the terminology here somewhat.Have you got things cunfused by chance?
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