Standard VS Ute Rotors Quality Question?
Looking to pick up a set of standard VS break rotors and was wondering if there is any quality difference.
Got a price on RDA and DBA maybe a comparison to GMH parts or any other recommendations. Which break pads do you blokes recommend. Just town and highway normal driving. Cheers gaz
Merry Christmas.
Tech
Originally Posted by redvpsenator
Looking to pick up a set of standard VS break rotors and was wondering if there is any quality difference.
Got a price on RDA and DBA maybe a comparison to GMH parts or any other recommendations. Which break pads do you blokes recommend. Just town and highway normal driving. Cheers gaz
Merry Christmas.
I would be going with drilled & slotted at least - if you have a drill press you can drill your own if you want to - QFM good all round pads / no dust or squeal...
IF YOR NOT A HOLDEN
dba aint bad.as dpefi said crossed drilled and slotted are the best ( not sure if i would drill my own) and benex pads do a good jod as well...vross drilled and slottered will wear out the pads a little quiker...other than that alls good champ take care and have a good 1 . best wishes
We ALL HAVE 1 THING IN COMMON:THE RELENTLESS PURSUIT OF GRIP
never drill your own unless you have a drill pattern to go by. incorrect drilling will weaken the discs. the price differences between standards and slotted arent much and well worth it. be sure to check out the cadium coated ie gold coloured to the normal cast colour for a bit of anti corrosion .
there is a difference in pads also. there are ones that will wear quicker than the disc and ones that will chew the disc more.
IF YOR NOT A HOLDEN
theres a cheap set going on ebay at the momment......you may get em cheap unless your after a brand new set? check out the ebay link just in case http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VR-VS-COMMODO...item230cb25ff0
We ALL HAVE 1 THING IN COMMON:THE RELENTLESS PURSUIT OF GRIP
Yes, not really keen on drilling them as a failure could cost a lot or hurt somebody. Just want to get it into roadworthy quick, think boxing day sales tomorrow for pads and rotors, Thanks
Yes, When I got the Senator years ago the PO had really hard pads in it that were pretty useless until they were warm and made a shitty scraping sound. Too long ago to remember what they were. Put softer pads in and were a big improvement and shortened pull up distance in town. I put a cheap set of rotors on the Hj75 Cruiser ute and they wore quick and developed buckles after a trip up bush. Not sure if it was the pads or the water on them that caused them to feel like ABS, pulsing [buckles], LOL but after fitting DBAs and HZJ calipers, no more problem. Just not sure what is best for the VS thought better to ask than buy wrong. I asked the wrecker about VTs when I bought the seats but he wanted to much and it would take time to chase the hoses and spacers. Best regards Gaz
Tech
If you know anything about engineering (& I learned this in High school) you would know that a round hole is just as strong as the original item - that being said you will not weaken something by drilling round holes in it - quite the opposite as if its drilled its getting rid of heat - I have drilled quite a few of my own & lightened flywheels & drilled those as well. You just use compass to make a curved line on the rotor so they all are regular & spaced evenly. After drilling them you can countersink them easily with the right tool from Bunnings.
What do you think they are using ?? They are using the std rotors & modifying them by drilling them - they are not casting different rotors for drilled & slotted.... so if it weakened them they would cast a special rotor...???
Slotted wont do much - all they are designed to do is stop out gassing by the pads where gases build up between the pad & Rotor due to heat the slots vent the gases to give you full contact with the rotor.
Yes, mate have done Structural Mechanics 1 and 2 and a heap more. However you don't need to do anything like this to understand if you have a serious accident and the vehicles are checked out that you are in the shit good and proper if you have mods that are illegal [ie not approved] means no insurance. Not all rotors are the same, DBA have different internal airflow shaping to others. I do not doubt the cross drilled and slotted are better for performance driving but a VS ute sensibly driven in town or on the highway will get better breaking from quality tires. MHO only
NEED 4 SPEED
Steer clear of cross drilled rotors as they are prone to cracking around the drilled holes. Drilled Rotors do not improve braking at all on street driven vehicles. Rotors are only drilled for appearance and/or to reduce weight on race cars.
EBC Brakes | Dangerous cross drilled rotors article
Thanks Mate, Pretty dangerous looking rotor, Best regards GazzaSteer clear of cross drilled rotors as they are prone to cracking around the drilled holes. Drilled Rotors do not improve braking at all on street driven vehicles. Rotors are only drilled for appearance and/or to reduce weight on race cars.
EBC Brakes | Dangerous cross drilled rotors article
bpefi i also have engineering experience not from school but work. if you say its all good and dandy without explaining how to do it properly a gimp with a drill will just go hay wire and end up killing themselves if not someone else. curves are stronger than sharp corners due to not have such a defined weak spot but misplaced holes will always cause problems in the long run
Tech
Sorry but I did explain how to do it - Also anyone wanting info on this site usually has some experience with automotive & should have the basic knowledge or being willing to learn. If there is a "gimp in here " well that's not my problem & I cannot do anything about it. If I had any worries about safety here I would clearly spell that out but I do not. It will only improve safety by improving braking effect.
Yes there is not a lot of difference in price & if something was available yes I would buy it - every time. But there is not a listing for every vehicle on the road. Not everyone has a Holden or just a Holden - I have a vs engine / trans in a Hilux. Drilled were going to be three - seven days away when I did mine & I couldn't wait at the time - nor did I have the money, so I got normal rotors with the intention of drilling them later. I wouldn't think that the rotors would be a problem with your insurance company as long as you advised them that they where fitted.
I don't know where you dragged that photo from - but that's one shot rotor & it would have had to be in extreme conditions for that to happen - normal rotors can crack as well - mind you.
My first set of drilled rotors where "DBA drilled only" - they never caused a problem despite being driven hard. I have seen minor cracking in some rotors with drilling in them on other cars - but not to the extent of the photo.I copied the DBA drilling pattern - which was pretty much the same pattern as what I said to do in my post.
Its also not unusual for them to get minor cracks & while they look dangerous - I haven't seen anything like that be a problem "so far" usually the problem is found well before it gets too bad.
First of all two things that drilled rotors achieve.....one is far cooler running - it also stops "out gassing" where the brake pads as they heat, give off a gas which acts as a cushion & reduces contact area between rotor & the brake pads. That means that the rotor & brakes are able to brake for much longer periods at higher braking levels.
It will dramatically reduce the chances of brake fade & the effects of out gassing & water on the brakes ... if that's not enough what is???
Anyone that tows or is a bit harder on the brakes will appreciate the extra braking effect.
The best thing you can do for brakes is fit a ducting system or make air scoops from the backing plates of the rotor.
This is common knowledge & it all came from technical bulletins from Bendix & DBA them selves.
The commodore ranging from around the VN onwards has always been a major problem - shudders in the brakes where quite common & the main problem is that the caliper is in front of the strut & in effect they block air getting into the rotor for cooling. The rotors & calipers where just too small as well. With my workshop I used to do the machining for the Local Holden dealer for many years both on car & off car. I was doing around 3 sets a day - even when the VT came out - we still had to machine a lot of rotors. The one thing that I did do was bend the backing plates back & shape them to catch fresh air in which helped a lot.
So considering the situation - there is no reason why drilled rotors would not be of great benefit to anyone especially vehicles with std size rotors.
A link to someone else doing it
Drilled Brake Rotors: How To
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...iki/Disc_brake
Tech
You have to consider that they are selling their own product which may or may not be any better. This will always influence what they say - when they have something to sell.
wasnt talking about your last post the first one
Tech
There is no approval required for drilled rotors - at least in QLD that I know of. They are not an illegal modification as many cars have rotors drilled like this & if they are illegal, show me where it is that says that I as I have not seen anything..????
I have been inspecting vehicles for safety certificates in QLD for many years & I have not come across a requirement in legislation present or in the past, that states that modifications like these need approval.
There is no evidence that drilled or slotted rotors have cause accidents - any braking system that is looked after on a regular basis should never cause a problem.
All you have to do is notify your insurance company that the modifications have been carried out & you should be fine.
So whats with the tyres comment - with the vehicle being under braked - tyres are tyres - you would be flat out locking the brakes up at any time with std VS brakes. Changing to better tyres would do nothing...
Also "all" DBA rotors have a "kangaroo paw" type vent design which increases air flow....they still use this type of vent with their drilled & slotted rotors so this is not a problem.
IF YOR NOT A HOLDEN
just of to left feild here for a sec>>> what if you wnet to the wreckers,got vt discs,calipers, then went to brakes plus to get the right sizes hoses and a set of left & right handed brackets to do yourself a vt brake upgrade all for prob under $600 the vt brakes make a huge diff i know as i had a set im my 97 vs ute (going to put them in my 1998 vs maloo) and the diff was amazing,lol when i do jump in my vt berlina i just touch the brakes and it pulls up way better than my vs maloo does, my old ute pulled up very very well with the vt upgrade and when i got into the stock maloo i had to push twice as hard to get the thing to just pull up...........so ive got stock on a v8 maloo and thay are plain,,,,i had vt upgrade on my last ute and that was a dream when it came to stopping( it had a shit load of other probs but the brake were ace lol)heater cores and all sorts off probs.....if i was you ( and im not) id give a the vt brake upgrade some thought...what ever you do? Best of luck and best wisheslooking to pick up a set of standard vs break rotors and was wondering if there is any quality difference.
Got a price on rda and dba maybe a comparison to gmh parts or any other recommendations. Which break pads do you blokes recommend. Just town and highway normal driving. Cheers gaz
merry christmas.
We ALL HAVE 1 THING IN COMMON:THE RELENTLESS PURSUIT OF GRIP
Tech
VT upgrade is the way to go - but I think you have to do master & booster - dunno why though - would have thought std would be ok for a bit & do the master & booster later on. I would imagine that the larger calipers would require a bit of filling so it might be bore size of the master cylinder being the problem - there are threads on them & stickies at the top of the VS page with brake upgrade options. Taking in mind that this would probably be something that you would have to have approved by a transport authority where ever you live. Don't forget to update your insurance company as well once its done & approved...
IF YOR NOT A HOLDEN
Works without the master& booster(works better with master and booster)the cheaper way out is iwth out the master and boooster
We ALL HAVE 1 THING IN COMMON:THE RELENTLESS PURSUIT OF GRIP
Cheers, I think [not sure without checking] the master cylinder upgrade will have a bigger bore. The VP HSV Senator has a bigger master cylinder bore than the Vn to VS master cylinder. I am not sure about the Marloo but the Senator HSV brakes are described as"progressive" requiring more foot pressure on the pedal so as they are not over boosted and lock up at high speed, having more control. When I bought my Senator from the PO with 88,000Ks on it [121,000 now] because of the very hard pads it always felt like "never going to stop' at low speed when cold but brilliant when warm on highway or heavy traffic on freeway. Softer pads made a huge difference and are more suitable to my steady driving. Senator power steering is different also, speed sensitive. When I changed the brakes on the Landcruiser as the Hj75 has one big piston and one smaller in the calliper, HZJ has two large pistons and bigger pad it made a big difference because of the larger clamping area. Changing further from the HJ75 master cylinder and booster to an early FJ80 series m/cylinder and booster makes a bigger difference as it has a bigger bore as the 80 series callipers take more fluid and the wheel cylinders on the back are also bigger. There are further mods also, but a bit off track on VR/VS. I expect the VT gear is similar.
IF YOR NOT A HOLDEN
yeah i get that feeeling like its no going to stop... ill take notice next time i take it for run i know when i leave and get to the end of the street after 2 mins she feels like shes no goin to stop.. push a bit harder and she pull up ok.feels soft uder the peddle?wow mate very ineresting thanks a bunch for the great reply...makes a lot of sence( i never had a clue mate your a legend)being a hsv late 1998 it may be set sim to your car......fantastic.....oh what would you think of a vt up grade on the vt? would that make it lokce up as you stated above? thanks again.santa better of been good to you, thanks again
We ALL HAVE 1 THING IN COMMON:THE RELENTLESS PURSUIT OF GRIP
Cheers mate, Just got this ling, going to read it myself.I am asking questions as I am not familiar with the ute and believe there is only one way to do a job, "the right way".
Commodore Brakes
the vt master is an 1 1/4 bore double acting so it fills the front brakes quicker than the rears
Real cars are steel cars.
The VT master is a fast fill type 1 inch bore with a 1 1/8" fast fill chamber at the rear. This provides high volume low pressure (by pushing fluid past the primary seal) to the calipers to bring the pads into contact with the rotor. Once this occurs, the primary seal flares and pressure is provided in the normal manner.
The VS also uses a fast fill master but it's is 7/8" bore with a 1 1/16" fast fill chamber.
As the larger bore master cylinders will increase pedal effort, they are normally used with double diaphram boosters.
To drill holes in disc rotors is foolish as they a cast, not forged.
I agree that cross drilled on the street is pointless. Cross drilling removes mass and causes the disc temperature to rise more quickly, as well as cool quickly.
Street brakes are designed to stop well when cold so rely on mass to absorb heat quickly.
Slotted would be a better option, IMO.
Think carefully about the VT upgrade, I did it to mine (still with the VS booster) and the results were less than effective. Very sensitive to pad compound.
If I told you I was a compulsive liar, would you believe me?
Cheers, and thanks. I agree fully. It has been a good discussion and I think it will help others apart from myself.
This is from the Commodore Brakes link I posted previously. Link from Pheonix.
Brakes
Any disc under minimum thickness will be ineffective in braking situations. Most Commodores from VB through to VP use the same 10 inch front disc, and calliper style. VL Turbo, VN V8 and VP II have an 11 inch front disc rotor. These rotors also use a different calliper, which sits further out to accommodate for the increased rotor diameter, and are cast with extra ridges on the calliper housing, to assist in heat dissipation. Because of the increase in size, 14 inch rims can not be used. Rear disc rotors are the same from VB through to VP, except IRS (Independent Rear Suspension). Rear disc rotors are all solid, meaning that it has no ventilation between the front and back surfaces. There are ventilated discs available for the rear of VB to VP, such as SV5000 and Grp A, and they come with a Corvette calliper.
The downfall of any braking system is heat, and heat dissipation. Slotted or cross-drilled and slotted rotors are beneficial, as they allow more airflow in and around the disc surface, to greatly increase heat dissipation.
Care must be taken when replacing pads, as different compositions of brake material are available. If the brake pad is high in metal, the pad will last longer, but the life of the rotor will be reduced. A brake pad low in metal, therefore being a soft composition, will not last as long as a metal pad, but the stress on the rotor will be less, and therefore the rotor will last longer. Performance brake pads are commonly available, but their operating temperatures vary, and may not be effective when cold.
VT Disc and Caliper Kits
VT twin spot calipers and disc rotors are a common upgrade for the front of earlier model Commodores. VB to VP will require 2 floating hubs for the disc to mount to, where as VR and VS already have a floating hub design and will not need changing.
VT disc rotors should not be used on VR or VS Commodores without the use of a centre slip ring. The diameter of the floating hub centre is larger on VT's, and if fitted without a slip ring, the disc is able to "walk", and not locate correctly. This can cause brake shudder and/or broken wheel studs.
Disc rotors are available for VR and VS Commodores that utilize the VT sizes, but have a smaller diameter hub centre to correctly locate the disc.
An area often overlooked is the master cylinder. VB to VS Commodores had a choice of 15/16inch or 1inch bore master cylinders. This is not suitable for the VT twin spot brake calipers. The VT master cylinder is a 1inch bore master cylinder, but is a quick fill. This means that the first section of the master cylinder is actually larger (1 3/16inch bore diameter). The quick fill design displaces more brake fluid on the initial application, to help move all 4 (front) pistons and maintain a good pedal feel with minimal travel. Without the use of a VT master cylinder, pedal travel will be increased. In other words, your pedal will go further to the floor before the car stops (some ABS vehicles do not suffer from this problem, but only some!!!).
Unfortunately, VT master cylinders will not bolt directly onto earlier model brake boosters. Because of this we sell a brake booster and master cylinder that will fit into earlier model Commodores. Ring us for more details!
Brake line flare ends in VB to VP are known as a double ball flare. From VR onwards they changed to a single ball flare. VT brake lines, brake hoses or master cylinders used in VP or earlier will need to have the flares changed.
Phoenix
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