Balance Shaft Rattle, getting rid of.

[vracclaim2]

Hey All, if you read my old post Gearbox rattle? Newbie
you will see I have had a rattle in my engine since I got it. I have finally checked out the Balance shaft.......this is after, Gearbox, Crankshaft and every other possible thing that can move.

Basically I removed my timing cover (bout 1 hr job) and can sit there and move the end of my Balance shaft around and in and out. Its only minimal play but would make a f&%k load of noise when running. The Timing chain and tensioner looks brand new, so that was good news.

Either today or tomorrow ill be removing the Balance shaft end pully putting it all back together and running the car with out the Balance shaft all together.(although it will still be in the engine). Ill take some pics and let you know how it all goes. Any comment or suggestions are welcome.
Peter.

[immortality]

the balance shaft was fitted to the engine by holden to do exactly as the name suggests. running without it would unbalance the engine further then it already is as it's not the most well balanced engine around as we all already know etc. would be interested how it runs though

[vracclaim2]

yeah I know where your coming from, apart from the rattle the engine is real smooth so I thought even if it roughens it up a little it will be better then the freakin rattle I have to put up with!!

[hako]

This may be a little off-centre, but back in the 70's when the first Valiant Hemi's came out, they had a bad timing chain rattle which caused the sprockets to wear prematurely. The camshaft bearings also developed fore and aft play. The easy fix was drill a 3/8 hole thru the timing cover directly over the camshaft - then weld a nut to the cover over the hole and screw a threaded bolt in till it put pressure on the end of the camshaft to stop fore and aft movement of the camshaft. Maybe something like this could stop the balance shaft from rattling.

[immortality]

cam shaft end play your talking about. still an issue on small block chevys but lots of simple fixes now for that. normally you fit a special cover thats been machined for a torrington thrust bearing. works a treat. anyway, where exactly is the rattle in the balance shaft?

[hako]

cam shaft end play your talking about. still an issue on small block chevys but lots of simple fixes now for that. normally you fit a special cover thats been machined for a torrington thrust bearing. works a treat. anyway, where exactly is the rattle in the balance shaft?

I've seen 2 types on Valiants - one with a dish-end bolt with a steel ball running straight on the camshaft and another which was a hardened bolt onto the camshaft. They both stopped endfloat which was so bad that the timing chain became misaligned wearing the sprockets. Also saw a Hemi with a side mounted chain tensioner which could be externally adjusted to keep the chain tight. All backyard jobs of course.

[whisky]

The benefits of removing the balance shaft are that you can fit a double row timing chain, but if you do it without having the bottom end completely balanced you run the risk of ruining the bottom end as it will be out of balance.

You will have vibrations that are going to drive you more mental then the current rattle you have. Fix it properly or you'll regret it. Trust me.

[immortality]

now if holden had just put a little more time into sorting the balance of the botom end instead of just fitting a balance shaft we wouldn't be in this situation.................................

[vracclaim2]

You will have vibrations that are going to drive you more mental then the current rattle you have. Fix it properly or you'll regret it. Trust me.

The thing is im willing to take the risk. For a two hour job in total which could get rid of this stupid F&%king rattle ill take the chance. Just out of curiousity, has anyone actually done this before. Without balancing the bottom end? nor a double row timing chain? or will this be a virgin job and every one just SAYS it will cause viabrations?

Im not stupid and know that it has to effect the balance in some way but Im so keen to see how much it does.

[hako]

The thing is im willing to take the risk. For a two hour job in total which could get rid of this stupid F&%king rattle ill take the chance. Just out of curiousity, has anyone actually done this before. Without balancing the bottom end? nor a double row timing chain? or will this be a virgin job and every one just SAYS it will cause viabrations?

Im not stupid and know that it has to effect the balance in some way but Im so keen to see how much it does.

I reckon I'd give it a go as well. Keep your fingers crossed that the rattle is not still there!
There's a great write up on this engine at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_3800_engine

[whisky]

The thing is im willing to take the risk. For a two hour job in total which could get rid of this stupid F&%king rattle ill take the chance. Just out of curiousity, has anyone actually done this before. Without balancing the bottom end? nor a double row timing chain? or will this be a virgin job and every one just SAYS it will cause viabrations?

Im not stupid and know that it has to effect the balance in some way but Im so keen to see how much it does.

do a search over on the s t r e et commodores forums, plenty of people have done it and get bad vibes.

If your going to do it, you will need to plug up the rear oil feed or you will have a high oil pressure drop, and we all know what that will do.

[Joey_21]

im cursing i have the same problem got a quote for 1200$ to fix it not worth it il put up with it i think i dont mines bad though it only does wen its cold and after the engine warms up it dissapears but is back in the morning again after the car is rested

[sv9946]

street commodores done this to v6 vengance but they balanced the bottom end, this was done to the 2nd engine v6 vengance had and from all reports it was still allright and ran right

but as i said they did balance the bottom end

good luck anyhow, keep us posted. would be interesting as to how you go and just how much the engines are out of balance without the balance shaft

[vracclaim2]

Hey all sorry for the Delay, Had other problems to deal with the last week. Will have the timing cover back on 2morrow so we will see how she goes.

Also Joey18 mine only makes the noise after its warm?

[vracclaim2]

HAHA COMPLETE SUCCESS!!!!! No rattle and No Viabrations!!! everything went smooth as. Removed the Balance shaft Cog/sproket whatever you want to call it, left the Balance shaft sitting in there. Put the Timing cover back on and wala, no rattle. Had a slight coolant leak due to a stupid mistake with the gasket silicon, but all is fixed and running well. If any one has any Questions let me know. The whole job cost a total of $10 for the two gaskets, and only took about 3hrs. Although it really took 2weeks due to my work comitments.

But as said before this might not work for all engines, but hell for 10 bucks, why not!

[Jamie_87]

my balance shaft is starting to go in my car, mech told me about 700 buks fitted for a new one, u can hear it at certain revs. Would b interestig to try what u did, but i dnt wanna take the chance, maybe if it completly goes i might, or ill just throw in a s/c v6 instead.

[hako]

Thats great vracclaim2....just shows there's more than one way to skin a cat and save some $$$ at the same time.
How are the vibrations thru the rev ranges - idle up to say 4500rpm? - no vibrations that come in and out?
How many K's on your motor?

[vracclaim2]

Cars got 200,000 kms. No viabrations through any of the rev range. At idle engine is smooth as. Very happy with the $10 fix.
Also Id be happy to write up a little how to if anyone wants me to? But as I said theres no gaurantees! lol.

[hako]

I really find that pretty amazing - every article I've ever read on V6 engines says that they need that balance shaft but I guess that this may not be the case in all instances.
The best bit about what you've done is that it is easy to reverse the modification if it doesn't work!....and cost and time are minimal.
I'd like to see a writeup as if nothing else it keeps people thinking of all options.
Regards

[bpefi]

I have had a look at a JP dual row timing chain kit & it just says remove the gear & fit the chain - they would have a disclaimer on it if they thought that it would cause problems I would have thought.

[acarmody]

EPIC Thread dig buddy. Are you trying to break a record or something?

[VNCommyBeast]

hey, are you gonna write up this how to? (5 years later) my car needs this!