Hard restarting VR...1 hour wait.

[Hotblooded_VR]

Hi all. This is my first posting after viewing this site for the past 6 months. I have seen some suggestions as to what could be my problem but thought i'd outline what exactly the symptoms are. My VR Commodore wagon starts fine first thing in the morning but idles fast and roughly (just as though a manual choke is pulled out). When driving, it feels like the car is being pulled along the road without much accelerator needed. There is a small flat spot on acceleration most times also, but occasionally on what i call a "good start" that flat spot isnt there and the idle is better. The main problem is that after i have driven the car for even only a short time (like 10 minutes or more), it is almost impossible to start again after it's turned off. It belches black smoke when it does start and i have to really jiggle the gas pedal to keep it going till it smooths out. Once again i'll mention that it feels as though a manual choke is still pulled out and thats why it seems to have trouble starting when hot. Fuel economy is extremely heavy and there is a definate petrol smell when it is idling, although there are no leaks i can see. The engine management light (orange one on dash) can come on approx 2 minutes after starting and stays on for a few minutes then goes out and never comes on again till restarted, then repeats the cycle..2 mins into driving, 2 mins lit, then off. I have read quite a few posts relating to various sensors and i feel that one of the sensors is the problem, but i have no idea which one. I did have an oxygen sensor fail on it once before a few years ago, which gave me similar symptoms but I have had 2 mechanics check the car over the past year and both said the O2 sensor is fine. The car can get quite hot when idling also (1/2 - 3/4 on temp guage), but while driving the temp guage goes no higher than 1/4 or lower. It's very frustrating if I have to just run to the nearest shop 15 mins. away for some shopping then have to wait an hour at least before it will restart again (more or less "normally"). I have nearly flattened the battery a few times trying to start it and only pumping the gas pedal while cranking seems to get it going while belching clouds of black smoke, but that can generally take the best part of an hour in between rests. I dont know much about motors at my tender age of 57, but it seems to me it acts just like a manual choke or broken auto-choke vehicle and i know all the systems are computer controlled. Is there a way to get an error code without the need to buy an expensive hand held diag meter, and will the error show up even if the engine management light is unlit? Any help or suggestions will be so appreciated as this problem has existed for the past year and the cost of 2 mechanics plus the heavy fuel usage is killing me, not to mention a 15 minute trip can turn out to be long enough away from home for the missus to think i've run out on her! Awaiting suggestings with interest and hope i have entered my request in the correct part of the forum.
Hotblooded_VR

[vr_shart]

hi my car was doin exactly this and nobody could help, untill i asked a mates random mechanic, it was the petrol consumption and the petrol smell with no leaks that gave it away to the mechanic , in my car it was the fuel pressure regulator, see without the pressure im pretty sure it just burns pure fuel in your car , my car would not start either it would blow smoke and start perfect of a cold morning, the fuel pressure regulator is situated at the end of the fuel rail on the drivers side it is a little silver ,like a cylynder type thingy that plugs into the end of the fuel rail and has a little black hose about 10 cms long goin to the intake, to check if this has blown, drive the car then pull the little black hose off the little silver thing and the intake and put your finger on the hole of the fuel pressure regulator where the little hose came from, now if fuel spills onto your finger it is gone this is where the pertol smell comes from and a new one cost me 70 dollars which wasnt to bad considering i was going to get a new fuel pump and hope it worked , anyway hope this helps let me know

[VrWagz1]

I think at the top of the VR/S section thereis a sticky that tells how to check error codes......
found it Checking error codes VR/VS (Revised) was a sticky at the top of the how-to section.

Grab the code and post back up. I'm actually thinking you have multiple issues. Fuel pressure sounds like it could be one issue. But i'd say TPS sounds dicky and the coolant temp sensor(which will tell the ecu how hot the car is so it can richen the fuel mixture when its cold just like the old choke).

But grab that code and it will lead you straight to the problem hopfully.

[Hotblooded_VR]

Thanks vr_shart for that great description and I understood every bit of what you were telling me to try. I actually had an RAA (Adelaide) mechanic check that fuel pressure regulator the very same way and it's clean as a whistle with no fuel drip. I doubled checked today just to be sure anyway, so back to the drawing board, but now armed with error codes as Vrwagz1 kindly gave me the link. Thankyou to both of you for your responses..ok..I found out I would have been hopeless at sea if I had to read Morse code...I sat in the car for about 30 minutes i guess running the codes over and over so i got them right..I'm a bass player so I need to triple check things..so my drummer says..lol
Error Codes in order and I hope you guys can tell me how to locate any sensors relating to the faults or suggestions to other actions if necessary...

Error Codes:

21 - Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Voltage Too High (Automatic VR only)..which I have.

31 - Theft Deterrent Signal Missing (which I presume is probably related to a flat battery in my key?).

34 - Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (MAP) Voltage Too Low (No idea..I'm a bass player).

51 - MemCal Unit (PROM) (and that doesnt sound healthy to me grrrr).

Those are the 4 I counted but thought I counted a 61 as well but there is no error code for that..possibly because I went over them so many times I muddled up the 61 but I was darn sure I counted 6 flashes than a 1..oh well..I'll have another look tomorrow and double check. What i've listed should be a head start anyway.

Thanks VR owners. I'll check back tomorrow for the bad news.

[delcowizzid]

pull the negative battery terminal off for 5 minutes to reset the codes stored in the ecu and retest after a drive and see if you get the same codes

[Hotblooded_VR]

Thanks Delco..I'm trying that now...I want to be sure I have clean codes and hopefully some might disappear after I get back from a little drive and I recheck...I'll post again in an hour or so. Thanks for the suggestion.

[OzJD]

Definately sounds like the Fuel Pressure Regulator to me, I had the same issues, it didn't leak though as was described earler.
Car was hard to start, blew black smoke, using more fuel than V8, check engine light intermittent.

Definately sounds like FPR to me mate.

What location are you in?

[Hotblooded_VR]

Hi OzJD..I'm North Of Adelaide. I had a Holden HK Brougham 1968 model and a "Big Barge" HZ Statesman and both of those 307/308 motors didnt chew up as much as I'm going thru with this V6 problem at the moment, so in view of your VERY similar past problem (without the petrol leakage from the FPR) I'll price one and see if I can replace the thing anyway. I havent got much hair left at my age to pull out so if its under $100 i'll go for broke and try a replacement FPR.
I just returned from a 30 min. drive after clearing my error codes and have now rechecked them. Some interesting developments. Before clearing the codes i had a 21,31,34, & 51 and a suspected 61 (which isnt even listed as a VR V6 code).
I now have on a clean slate these codes...

21 - Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Voltage Too High

51 - MemCal Unit (PROM)..please tell me it's not as bad as it sounds!

and YEP..a definate CODE 61 WHICH ISNT EVEN LISTED.
I checked them all 3 times over and then 3 times over again...it is a code 61..anyone got any ideas what the heck that could be? I read the flashes correctly...6 flashes..a second pause and 1 flash...i sat in the car for 30 minutes making sure i got them right. 21,51 and 61.
She's running very smelly and rich fuelly at the exhaust (black exhaust soot) which could be the petrol smell too.

Suggestions on codes appreciated..especially this 61.
Thanks for the input already everyone too.

[delcowizzid]

ide be trying to find someone with the same model car and borrow there ecu to see if it helps.tps you can test with a multimeter should be 0.50volts at idle.the memcal unplugs from the ecu and may have come unplugged but i doubt it but worth pulling it out and putting it back in to make sure its well connected.my moneys probably on the ecu packing a mental its been happening a lot these last few weeks on here too.know anyone who you can borrow an ecu off to test.

[delcowizzid]

plus if the memcal was disconnected you should get the fan on on startup

[Hotblooded_VR]

Funny you should mention the fan Delco. The car can only be running from cold for a few minutes and the darn electric fan kicks in and the temp gauge doesnt even register past the first mark..it usually stays on 5 mins, then goes off till i find a set of traffic lights to idle at and comes on as normal about 1/4 temp gauge...if that is normal!
I better find someone who know what their doing as far as this memcal and ecu stuff though cause i'm an old Holden man..you know the ones without computers in them..just ya shopping calculator..lol

[delcowizzid]

im an old holden man myself LOL but have been forced to move on to newer models,dont be scared of the ecu its pretty basic stuff.its located in the front passenger kick panel where your feet go under the plastic panel on the left pull that off and hope there isnt a metal security panel over the ecu.drop the ecu out will be held in with 2 screws into the plastic carrier under the ecu where the wires plug in then take the 2 screws out the side of the ecu and remove the metal cover and you will see a blue plastic memcal which holds the chip with the tune on it.from the symptoms of the fan and the black fuel smoke ide say a driver has gone in the ecu.the vn ecu does in the coolant sensor one and it causes just the same symptoms.plus with weird eratic error codes as well points more to the ecu too.TPS is cheap and easy to replace or test if you want to dig deeper before finding an ecu to use.someone on here in your erea might pipe up and lend you there ecu for half an hour to see if it is that

[Hotblooded_VR]

Ok Delco. Thanks heaps for that instuction on the ecu. i knew where it was years ago but just didnt wanna fool around with it. I'd say i have no choice now so its worth a gentle poke around and check out what youve told me to do. Darn i better buy some printer ink if this keeps up with all these instructive lessons..lol..Cheers matie..i'll get to it on the weekend and see what i can see. that false 61 error code makes sense now if the ecu is playing up and giving weird codes etc. If replacing it gives my fan a rest and doesnt choke any more shoppers in clouds of black smoke its worth the cost....i'll let you know what i find out then. if it needs replacing i know where to scream out for help...we poor battling bass musicians dont know much about cars other than is the boot big enough to hold my amp and fit 2 chicks in the back seat..sorry girls...front seat is for my geetar..lol Cheers! Adelaide out for now.

[delcowizzid]

haha im on the bass too and a bit of lead as well.

[OzJD]

Yeh, I checked in the Gregory's as well mate, just in-case the code was missing from the site.
Anyhow, 61 definitely doesn't exist, sure you had your glasses on? :P

[NickVR]

This sounds exactly like what I had. The idler stepper motor needed changing and a coolant temp sensor also. But can't remember the cost of it.

I remember filling up my car at a servo and I went to go start it but it wouldn't kick over. Then I would use the throttle to get it started (like a carby equipped car) and it would blow out black smoke. I got the above fixed and it has been no trouble since.

[vr_shart]

hi again i asked mechanic and he said about my fuel pressure regulator leaking as i said , and he said some leak some dont , mine did cause it was completely gone like probably had the insides blown out of it , ,so some leak some dont i guess if u hav a mate with same engine it would pay to swap the FPR over anyway its only one allen key bolt holding it in , and when u take it out petol will squirt out ,possibly about half a litre if your quick and then start your car and she should be fine if no difference then its got me baffled lol,

[VrWagz1]

Though its unlikely, possibly a failed TPS(throttle position sensor) sensor may have spiked the ecu and partially killed it.
My first call would be to replace the TPS on the throttle body, just check the wiring too it first to make sure its not unplugged or somthing silly. You can buy new or go to a wreckers for it, but like anything from a wreckers you cant garuntee it works, just way up the prices.

After that clear and re-check codes, and hope that it takes the code 51 (prom) code with it. If not then grab a ecu from the wreckers and swap it out, or swap with a mates vr auto if you know someone. I paid $30 for a vr ecu off ebay, beware just because its got chips and resistors and magic stuff in it dont let a dodgy wrecker try and rip you off a small fortune for it. I'd post you my spare but it has no memecal.

See how you go from there and post up again

[Hotblooded_VR]

Hey Oz..not only did I have my glasses on I was marking the flashes with a pen on paper and using an abacus..lol...I think Delco might have been right if the ecu is a bit screwy it's likely to give weird error codes also.

Nick..thats exactly what happened to me last time I filled up at the servo. I had to push the car into a parking bay and try for an hour pumping the gas just like an old petrol starved carby to get her going, so I'll check out your suggestion definately too. Thanks.

Shart..I'll also definately change over the FPR as well as VRWagz suggestion of the TPS and like he said, hopefully after resetting the codes I might get a 12 only instead of a maths lesson.
Heck it's the opposite to school exams...the lower the score..the better..lol

Thanks for all your suggestions guys cause i'm sure one of those is the answer, if not maybe all of them. Now all I need is to scratch up the money to get the darn thing fixed. I live only 10 minutes from Holdens at Elizabeth so maybe if i'm quick I could replace the whole car from the stockpile on Phillip Highway and hope nobody notices a slightly sick VR amongst the newbies..lol

I'll keep you all notified as to what ive tried and how it all goes. Cheers lads, the beers are on me.

[delcowizzid]

VR auto ecu's on ebay for $15 right now never know what sort of condition they are in though

[Hotblooded_VR]

Hey NickVR..where are you in Adelaide if I may ask? Do you do your own repairs? Can you point me in the direction of a good reliable cheaper mechanic maybe....I know I know...is there such a person...lol. My usual mechanic died a few years ago and the last few times with the very problem I posted about I used LubeMobile and they charge like a wounded bull, dont know what they are about sometimes (unless you get a LubeMobile ex Holden mechanic which I did once to replace the fuel pump) or they dont fix the problem to start with. I paid out $300 for them a year ago to find this fault I have originally posted about and all they did was decabonize and clean the fuel rail/intake body with a can of cleaner and still couldnt find the problem. I dont want a mobile mechanic again unless the car is undriveable.
Just wondered how you get your repairs done Nick.

[NickVR]

I'm in Salisbury, don't do all of my own repairs. To fix the problem I had I went to Bill Towlers on waterloo corner road at Burton. He checked the computer codes and fixed the problem. Can't remember how much it was but it wasn't exactly cheap but fixed the problem. For general servicing and repairs after that I went to a place on stanbel road called glenrothes motor repairs. Great guy does good work and resonably priced.

[Hotblooded_VR]

Ok Thanks Nick..I'll look into the Stanbell rd guy...I used to be a Salisbury postie btw...know it like the back of my hand even though I live in Elizabeth..Cheers..thanks for the info.

[Hotblooded_VR]

Oh BTW Guys just as an interesting sidenote...
I use an original Holden remote key which had a flat battery and therefore the central locking doesnt work even though the key still operates as a key to lock and unlock the car and to start the engine. Now whether it disbales the anti-theft correctly with a flat battery could have been some of the problem I thought. The plastic body of the key is broken away where one of the screws goes in to hold the key in the body securely..the other screw luckily is ok in the plastic body and that screw actually attaches to the little round contact of the key that hits the barrel ring on the car's ignition. I replaced the battery (which is a slide in fit inside the remote plastic case) thinking it might help my re-starting problem if anti-theft wasnt disabling properly, but that didnt help anyway.
Now here I come to the point...My ex-wife had to purchase a copy replacement key from Holden's themselves (I think she said about $200 Plus) a few years ago. Naturally over time the battery in that key died too. I opened the case up with great difficulty (even after removing the 2 screws) because the darn case was more or less molded together. I got it open only to find that the battery ITSELF was spot welded to the two contacts (positive and negative) and they in turn were soldered onto the circuit board inside the case. In other words you CANNOT replace the battery and its a $200 Plus throwaway key. I was NOT impressed especially coming from a Holden dealer. So beware when purchasing a key that you maybe ask to see inside it and make sure its not a soldered/welded battery and has a slip in surround to hold the battery. Just thought i'd let you know in case somebody else has to replace a key or needs a spare. Maybe I was a one-off case in point..who knows. It would be interesting to hear if anybody else has heard of being ripped off that way too.

[Hotblooded_VR]

Sorry guys...I've just been informed in another part of the forum by Not_An_abba_Fan that this is a known issue about the keys...darn I wish I had know about it a few years ago when I got burned. Apologies all.