LM8185's Raptor Blown VS V6

[totq]

theres pros and cons to getting it engineered. it does mean less defects, but that wont stop a cop sending you to the EPA for testing. i think some states have free emissions tests, but not mine anyway. im not sure if things are easier in your state or not.
either way, if youre going for an emissions test, youd have to take the car back to standard form, same as if you got a defect

I am not completely sure what you meant there, Stocky.

a) I don't know what you mean by having the car engineered means less defects. A defect is... a defect, regardless of the car being legally engineered or not. Using LM8185's car as an example, if his charger mod has been engineered, then his charger, being a major power gain mod, is legal. Any other defeciencies he has, such as bold tyres, worn brakes, excessively loud exhaust, a blown brake light bulb, or what ever...are all defects. If his car gets inspected, it just means he won't get into trouble for the mods that have passed engineering.

b) Emissions. Every car may be ordered for such a test. But usually a car that appears heavily modded, neglected or complaints have been lodged for a particular car will be more of a target for such an order. I don't really know about having to bring your car back to standard form though. My understanding is, if your car has been specifically tuned after the mods, and if the tuner has done the right thing and tune it to legal emissions, then that is not a defect. Usually though, a tune that is bias towards ultimate power will adversely effect emissions....if you want to be sure, you can tell the tuner to make sure it complies with emissions standards.
A completely stock car can also fail an emission test if it has been neglected in servicing or due to faulty components. For example, a faulty oxygen sensor would do so. And I think so will a faulty catalytic converter.

[stocky]

b) Emissions. Every car may be ordered for such a test. But usually a car that appears heavily modded, neglected or complaints have been lodged for a particular car will be more of a target for such an order. I don't really know about having to bring your car back to standard form though. My understanding is, if your car has been specifically tuned after the mods, and if the tuner has done the right thing and tune it to legal emissions, then that is not a defect. Usually though, a tune that is bias towards ultimate power will adversely effect emissions....if you want to be sure, you can tell the tuner to make sure it complies with emissions standards.
A completely stock car can also fail an emission test if it has been neglected in servicing or due to faulty components. For example, a faulty oxygen sensor would do so. And I think so will a faulty catalytic converter.

when i went for my EPA test, everything had to be standard. no aftermarket computer, no intercooler, no charger, no pod filter. i got a checklist of what was checked. standard computer required a completely standard memcal. mine was knocked back because the memcal had a socket soldered onto it, but still had a factory chip.
i was allowed a modified exhaust, but that was because it was still quiet, and had 2 cats instead of 1, so the emissions were better than factory.

but as i said, it may be different in other states

[89 vn]

Engineered simply means its legal. When someone says my car has an engineers certificate it means the mods done to the car were check/accessed by a government engineer and when they give the stamp of approval no one can say **** about your mods.
Of course anyone can be defected for things like bald tyres, and a failing oxy sensor but the main gripes are: loud exhaust/emissions and power to brake ratio. I mean how many young people really want a supercharger or turbo but dont care about stock brakes

VIC/NSW have the toughest laws because they are full of idiots and also a higher population.

[VN_Luke]

I am not completely sure what you meant there, Stocky.

a) I don't know what you mean by having the car engineered means less defects. A defect is... a defect, regardless of the car being legally engineered or not. Using LM8185's car as an example, if his charger mod has been engineered, then his charger, being a major power gain mod, is legal. Any other defeciencies he has, such as bold tyres, worn brakes, excessively loud exhaust, a blown brake light bulb, or what ever...are all defects. If his car gets inspected, it just means he won't get into trouble for the mods that have passed engineering.

b) Emissions. Every car may be ordered for such a test. But usually a car that appears heavily modded, neglected or complaints have been lodged for a particular car will be more of a target for such an order. I don't really know about having to bring your car back to standard form though. My understanding is, if your car has been specifically tuned after the mods, and if the tuner has done the right thing and tune it to legal emissions, then that is not a defect. Usually though, a tune that is bias towards ultimate power will adversely effect emissions....if you want to be sure, you can tell the tuner to make sure it complies with emissions standards.
A completely stock car can also fail an emission test if it has been neglected in servicing or due to faulty components. For example, a faulty oxygen sensor would do so. And I think so will a faulty catalytic converter.

That's pretty much spot on.

In order to get your car approved by an engineer, they will ask to see proof that your car still complies with the emissions ADR's that it was designed to comply with when it was made.

so for e.g. your '96 model commodore needs to comply with a certain level of emissions from the exhaust, fuel tank, etc. - regardless of if it has a lawnmower motor fitted to it, or a supercharged twin turbo v12, or a completely stock motor.

Proof of such compliance can be obtained by taking your car to one of a few (privately and government owned) suitably equipped testing labs.

These testing labs will have a pre-determined procedure for testing for compliance with various emissions ADR's - depending on when your car was made.

This test (depending on the ADR that your car needs to comply with) might feature some interesting things - like complete cold start to warm up cycle, etc etc - which can be VERY difficult to tune for. - And unfortunately, from what I have read - these tests are expensive, and you pay whether you pass or fail.

Putting all that aside, though - let's say we do have a couple of grand in our pocket to fork out for tuning, testing, test fuel, transport, etc... we now have a piece of paper that proves that the car complies with the emissions regs that it needs to! woo!

After this - your engineer will actually want to spend some time with you, go over the car, ensure all modifications are done correctly, brakes are good for power, everything is solid etc, etc (this is the easy part, compared to the emissions testing thing )

So lets say the engineer has approved everything, you now have a piece of paper that states your car is A-OK! (after a good few grand in paying qualified people's wages lol)

And that's all good and well! - except realistically, you're now not too much better off than you were before! why? - because in REAL life - the cop that pulls you over on a Friday night has had a bad night and just scraped someone off the road, and has no sympathy for people that drive hotted up cars - it's up to his digression whether he sends you to the EPA or not, or whether he gives you a defect for your modifications. - Regardless of whether you have a piece of paper you paid a few grand for or not... At the end of the night it's up to YOU to prove your car is legal, not up to him to prove it's not!

The only UP side of having this few thousand dollar bit of paper, is that if you by chance haven't modified your tune (for more power, rather than emissions), and your car is EXACTLY the same as it was when it went to get tested/approved - so things like ... NO MORE BOOST, no cold air intakes, no bigger exhausts, no different manifolds, no pod filters, etc.... and your cats are in the same shape and condition, and your evaporative emissions stuff is still in just as good-a working order... etc etc (remember that stock cars fail these tests too!) chances are you won't need to convert your car to stock in order to pass the emissions test at the EPA - and when you show them the certificate that your car conforms to the emissions standards it was supposed to (even though it might turn out that it doesn't, according to their comparatively simple test), they might be a bit more lenient on you

So at the end of the day, the whole engineers thing seems to be a debate whether a few grand worth of engineering bills is worth potentially getting out of an EPA/canary in the first place...

and then, if it DOESN'T get out out of an epa/defect, whether it's worth spending that few grand in order to NOT be able to modify your car any further than what it was when engineered! - (because the second you modify exhaust/intake/more boost/tune etc, it alters emissions, and you're back to square 1)....... and if you've modified it, you have to change it back anyway, in order to have any chance of passing the tests... so really, no better off than no engineers - in this scenario

At the end of the day, PERSONALLY, I rather hold on to my few grand, and take a chance that I might have to spend a few nights a year changing my car back to stock, if I'm unlucky enough to get sent to the epa - which I probably would have to end up doing anyway!

And when it comes to insurance - it seems the insurance company PDS says they may refuse a claim IF:

your vehicle is being driven/ridden or used while in an unroadworthy or unsafe condition.

* This exclusion will not apply if you prove that:
you could not reasonably have detected the unsafe or unroadworthy condition; or
* the loss, damage or legal liability was not caused or contributed to by the unsafe or unroadworthy condition.

... So so long as your car is roadworthy and safe, regardless of how much smoke/carbon monoxide it's blowing out the tailpipe (Well unless the accident was caused by lack of visibility due to smoke, or carb. mono. posioning) - it appears they don't have grounds to refuse a claim.


What's my point?

I don't know - but I figured I'd try share some of the stuff I learnt a few years back when I was reading heaps about emissions/engineering/insurance etc

Apologies for the epically long post.

And I do need to mention (as an addition) the 'victim' here is the environment. - the emissions regulations ARE there for a reason, etc - If you care enough, you'll offset the pollution you make driving an un-EPA friendly car by planting trees, and using less energy and stuff - if you don't - *shrugs*

[Matt_vp]

qld rocks, $88 gets u a blue mod plate. no emissions ect.
Matt

[Emackulation]

Good post Luke, Was gong to rep but I need to spread my love elsewhere

[LM8185]

Thanks guys, that was a good read, all of it. Hopefully it has shed some light for others as well as myself on these Engineering/EPA issues...

[radarak47]

yup,

I will save a few grand and not be an idiot on the road to get the back up of some ticked of copper and if I do get canaried, remove everything chuck the stock tune ECU back in and go through emmisions with a stock VX.

[vs-6]

yup,

I will save a few grand and not be an idiot on the road to get the back up of some ticked of copper and if I do get canaried, remove everything chuck the stock tune ECU back in and go through emmisions with a stock VX.

yer but instead if u get a tune for the injectors it would be so much easier as you wouldnt have to take off ur whole plenum and injectors again just something to look at if it ever happens lol

[stocky]

yer but instead if u get a tune for the injectors it would be so much easier as you wouldnt have to take off ur whole plenum and injectors again just something to look at if it ever happens lol

its not that simple. you can have a stock tune, huge injectors and change the injector rate in the tune, and it still wont idle too well. would also cause the car to run rich at idle which means the whole test would be a waste of time as it would likely fail.

[Raptorsc]

Something of interest for some

If the supercharger system is completely removed, and the bigger injectors and SC tune remain installed, the vehicle will run perfectly.

[radarak47]

I can atest to what Raptor is saying, I ran the mod chip with larger injectors only for several weeks before bolting the SC on. the car ran brilliantly, great mid to top end for a NA car.

You take everything off and put the original injectors back in. Then slot the original tune chip that is provided with the Chiptorque modified PCM and you are back at stock. Then bolt up an original exhaust. Might take a day to do this but that is the fun of driving modified vehicles.

[LM8185]

WOW! Its been a while since I've updated my ride's thread...

You are 100% correct about the safe tune radarak47... and it works both ways too. When I first got the Raptor on, the tune that was sent was for a manual. I used the standard tune for a week or so until the new one arrived and it worked perfectly.

As for my ride, I've recently made some cosmetic upgrades to my baby.

She now features an aftermarket VS S-Pac Bobtail Spoiler Lip (the bobtail is the only VS spoiler I have ever liked), and I have also added some Chrome Window Surrounds from a wrecked Berlina (finally found a whole set)!

In my opinion, cosmetically she is finished now. The chrome surrounds really set of the VZ SS Flutes and the rims nicely, and the lip spoiler finishes of the rear end (in my opinion something was missing).

My apologies about the picture quality, but they were taken with a camera phone as i was leaving for work.

[GUN346]

Never seen this thread untill now lol, nice job mate she looks sweet, love the colour looks very sniny.

Bet she hauls a$$ with that power, i was thinking of doing this when i had my old Berlina but i love v8s to much lol.

[radarak47]

Sounds good mate. I am in the same boat car has not been modded much the last few months.

[LM8185]

Never seen this thread untill now lol, nice job mate she looks sweet, love the colour looks very sniny.

Bet she hauls a$$ with that power, i was thinking of doing this when i had my old Berlina but i love v8s to much lol.

Cheers mate, yeah she goes hard, especially for a 6, definately! I love the 8's too, dont get me wrong, but i like to be different, and definately like being asked a lot of questions as to why my V6 is beating some V8s out there.

Sounds good mate. I am in the same boat car has not been modded much the last few months.

Yeah it sucks huh? On that though, im going to be putting a Mace Manifold Spacer on (12mm as unfortunately the 25mm wont fit with the Strut Tower Brace on her ). Hopefully throw her on the dyno and check how it goes (190-200rwkw would be nice), and then hopefully ASAP after that im going to run her down the strip...

WSID Here I Come!!!

[LM8185]

I just ordered the 12mm Mace Manifold Spacer and it will be on about 20-30 minutes after it arrives... roughly.

After that, i WILL throw it on the dyno to check gains (even though i have been saying that for a while), and then ASAP after that (even though the misses is scared something bad will happen to me), i will hopefully be running her down WSID before the year is out.

[dbarnes]

howd the dyno run go mate?

[LM8185]

howd the dyno run go mate?

Just got the time to put the Manifold Spacer on today, so i havent had her on the dyno again... yet. Will hopefully be within a week or two... depends on a few commitments i have... mainly work.

As soon as she comes off the dyno, i will post up the results and the dyno sheet, even if for some unknown, rediculously crazy, stupid reason the things power drops from where it was last time...

Also got an Autometer Boost Gauge for her too, something i should have gotten ages ago but never got up off my a$$ and did it. Only thing now is to actually hook the damn thing up... Anyone want to do that for me? Unfortunately finding time is not as easy as id like it to be...

[LM8185]

Boost guage is fitted, but it seems to be running slightly low, max ive seen is about 7PSI (under load). It hits 9PSI easily in neutral... and the Raptor should deliver around 9PSI on road. The last dyno run showed about 9.2PSI, which put out 183.4rwkw and didnt have the MACE Manifold Spacer, MACE CAI Box or the Royal Purple Lubricants at that time either.

Speaking of dyno, its booked in for 10am on Friday morning, so ill hopefully see some gains over the last run. 190rwkw would be nice, but anything higher wouldnt be knocked back either.

Any estimates? im going with 193.6rwkw.

[mking]

hey man is this setup still not intercooled?

[LM8185]

hey man is this setup still not intercooled?

Nah mate, she's still not intercooled. Cash is the main reason for that, but also time, cos she is my daily driver.

It is on the cards, but so are a few other things that may be a while. Im thinking the next major upgrade will be the 3.7 diff gears and minispool...

[LM8185]

As promised, good or bad here is the dyno sheet from 10am this morning.

Unfortunately its bad... she only put out 126.5rwkw, and she is running even leaner than the first time i had issues with a lean air/fuel mixture.

Attached is a Dyno sheet showing the last good run (13:1), and the current bad run (15:1), which is a fair bit higher than the first lean run (14:1).

Now my question is this:

WHY???

Why has the air fuel ratio leaned out so much?

Last time it was a simple fix of changing the tune to a richer one, which brought it down to about 13:1, and put out 183.4rwkw.

So to recap:

25/01/08 - 14:1 Air/Fuel Ratio - 164.4rwkw - Changed to richer tune and fixed
21/02/08 - 13:1 Air/Fuel Ratio - 183.4rwkw - Slightly lean but safe
23/10/09 - 15:1 Air/Fuel Ratio - 126.5rwkw - Need suggestions

Obviously the best bet is to work backwards from here, back to where it was running well, and the only changes made between then and now are a MACE Manifold Spacer, MACE CAI Box, Royal Purple Lubricants and a new Fuel Pump (old one died)

Out of the above list, i believe that the Fuel Pump may be faulty, as the other things shouldnt change the Air/Fuel ratio, unless im mistaken?

If anyone has any thoughts on this, please let me know, as i would like to get her running properly and to sort out this issue as quickly as possible, so i can get an accurate reading on what positive gains have been yeilded.

Thanks in advance guys.

[Raptorsc]

Dying, dirty or dead Air Flow Meter

My first, second and last guess unless the fuel pump is shagged or fuel filter blocked

3 things only

[LM8185]

That's what the dyno guy suggested too, he asked if id changed anything recently and I said fuel pump a couple of months ago, he said it could be faulty, or a faulty/dead/dirty/dying AFM.

He also told me the amount of times he's seen a lean air/fuel mixture from a faulty AFM sap so much power on the dyno is incredible.

Trial and error now I guess...