Bad noise from engine! HELP

[acarmody]

On Sunday when I started my car there was this horrid noise coming from the engine bay, sounded like some sort of metal piece bouncing around in the engine, but after 15 secs it went away, so I turned the car off and started it again, same thing. I had to get to work so I drove carefully and there was no difference in engine behaviour.
Anyway finished work and went to start uo the car, first turn of the key nothing happened, as in engine didn't start or anything, so I turned the key off and on again and engine fired up but with the sound again, but this time for about 30 seconds. I was real close to calling a tow truck, but noise dissappeared so I drove it home no problems.
So Monday morning I turned it on to take it to the mechanic and again noise, but again stopped after about 20 seconds, so drove it to the mechanics. And of course when I went to demonstrate it to the mechanic, NO FRIGGIN NOISE . So I told them to keep it there for a few days. 2 Days and no noise, but today I rung them and yep they have heard it, and yep its coming from the engine. They say possibly a bearing or something but they will investigate tomorrow. But they did say 'How do you feel about having to get a new engine?'.

Anyway has anyone ever had a similar problem? Also what would be the best option for me in the worst case scenario? Engine rebuild? Drop a second-hand Ecotec in? L67? Price is an issue for me, but if it has to happen......

Cheers everyone,
-Adrian

[accentstencil]

Could be any number of things but check the harmonic balancer, they can make a racket when they go. Check the condition of the rubber in the centre.

[Calaber]

Starter motor not disengaging? How does the starter sound when you use it?

[Calaber]

Could be any number of things but check the harmonic balancer, they can make a racket when they go. Check the condition of the rubber in the centre.

Once they go, that's it though. They wouldn't shut up after a while, then start again when the engine was restarted. They'd just bang and rattle until replaced.

[acarmody]

Actually I thought it might be the starter motor as well, but the mechanic said that it doesn't sound like it. They will have a better look tomorrow. Also going to pull tappet covers off to have a look in there too (car also has a fairly noisy tappet sound coming from left side).

[Promotec]

Please post the outcome, im interested to hear how you get on and what the cause is

Regards Chris

[acarmody]

I just came back from the mechanic. As for the grinding/rattling noise that comes at start-up, NO IDEA . Still think it may be the starter motor not properly disengaging, dunno hasn't done it since I dropped it off at the mechanic. But while they were investigating the tappet like noise they discovered it wasn't in the rocker cover, it isn't the lifters because I've already replaced them, so they said judging by the noise intensity (at near full throttle you can hear it about 10 metres away) and likely placement, I most likely have a broken camshaft bearing .

Oh well cheaper than a new engine or a reco. New camshaft here I come

Can anyone recommend some cam suppliers and cam specs. Ecotec with 1.97 rockers. I know about Crane and Crows, but what do people think of them.

[Calaber]

Well, I don't claim to know it all, but I've never heard of a broken cam bearing. They are fully supported within the block and sandwiched between the block and cam - how would you "break" one? I've heard of loose cam bearings which have drifted out of position within the block, but not broken ones.

As already said, the problem will be interesting to solve. Keep us informed.

[vt dreamer]

I bet on the starter motor, probably has worn out, and different temperature makes certain metals sizes increase/decrease, and that could be the reason it only happens sometimes.

[Smallies]

Is the noise in time with the revs of the engine? or is it more random? Could be something simple - don't let the mechanics take you to the cleaners.

[acarmody]

Well, I don't claim to know it all, but I've never heard of a broken cam bearing. They are fully supported within the block and sandwiched between the block and cam - how would you "break" one? I've heard of loose cam bearings which have drifted out of position within the block, but not broken ones.

As already said, the problem will be interesting to solve. Keep us informed.

They didn't specifically say broken, just that it doesn't sound right. Very hard to diagnose an internal engine problem without pulling the engine apart.

I bet on the starter motor, probably has worn out, and different temperature makes certain metals sizes increase/decrease, and that could be the reason it only happens sometimes.

I believe that the starer motor IS becoming stuffed. A starter motor not properly disengaging would likely of produced that rattling/gringing sound that the car was making. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the sound has come back since so we can't pinpoint the exact source. I will likely get the guy pulling the engine out to replace it anyway.

Is the noise in time with the revs of the engine? or is it more random? Could be something simple - don't let the mechanics take you to the cleaners

Yeah the noise is there all the way from idle to full revs, gets louder with revs. I have already had all the lifters replaced not long ago, and rockers and springs are fine.

I don't think my mechanic is likely to rip me off as they said they don't do engine rebuilds, so they aren't going to do any of the work. They did recommend me to a guy who apparently is pretty good with this sort of thing (engine rebuilds and swaps). I went and talked to him and he thinks the same thing about the bearings. Also this guy is cheap because he works for himself and doesn' have to pay any staff. He said about $1100 plus parts to remove the motor, strip it down, re-ring the pistons, new crank bearing, fit camshaft, new camshaft bearing and rebuild while checking everything as he goes.

He said that it was possible that the higher ratio rockers might be putting more pressure on the camshaft because the higher ratio means it pushes the springs down more, therefore it places more pressure on the camshaft, or something like that. Any ideas?

[sandbar1000]

once the engine is warm, when you turn it off and back on after a short time does it still make the noise??
Or only after sitting for a while..ie, overnight???

i,m thinkn oil pump, or initial oil pressure at start up.....



[B]davo.....[B]

[fitz_vt]

Ok to diagnose end bearing and rod bearing failure, you need to look out for a few things
1. too much or not enough oil.
2. Low Oil Pressure
3. Random Engine lights
After these come up, you will start to hear a knocking, or a rapping noise, this means an end bearing is gone (new short block or crankshaft and bearings or new engine.)
Rod bearing noise is a metallic knock which is loudest at about 60 kilometers per hour without any acceleration.

Before ripping apart the block make sure that you have correct level of oil, and check for dilution on the dipstick (contamination) with another type of oil.

Easiest thing to do is drop a second hand or reconditioned in it if its bearing noise. i had this problem i had end bearings and rod bearings go.

[gsxrdan]

For a couple of weeks before my CRANKSHAFT shat a bearing shell it souded like a tin of sockets being rattled around for a few seconds... got progressively longer till it didn't go away, one half of a big end bearing had slipped around and was humping the other half. I was broke so I rebuilt the engine, it worked, but unfortunately my car was a Camira so I was wasting my time anyway!!

[sandbar1000]

Ok to diagnose end bearing and rod bearing failure, you need to look out for a few things
1. too much or not enough oil.
2. Low Oil Pressure
3. Random Engine lights
After these come up, you will start to hear a knocking, or a rapping noise, this means an end bearing is gone (new short block or crankshaft and bearings or new engine.)
Rod bearing noise is a metallic knock which is loudest at about 60 kilometers per hour without any acceleration.

Before ripping apart the block make sure that you have correct level of oil, and check for dilution on the dipstick (contamination) with another type of oil.

Easiest thing to do is drop a second hand or reconditioned in it if its bearing noise. i had this problem i had end bearings and rod bearings go.

you got no idea of what your talkn bout mate???




davo.....

[acarmody]

once the engine is warm, when you turn it off and back on after a short time does it still make the noise??
Or only after sitting for a while..ie, overnight???

i,m thinkn oil pump, or initial oil pressure at start up.....



[B]davo.....[B]

The noise is there from turn of the key onwards. I can always hear it when I am driving.

Ok to diagnose end bearing and rod bearing failure, you need to look out for a few things
1. too much or not enough oil.
2. Low Oil Pressure
3. Random Engine lights
After these come up, you will start to hear a knocking, or a rapping noise, this means an end bearing is gone (new short block or crankshaft and bearings or new engine.)
Rod bearing noise is a metallic knock which is loudest at about 60 kilometers per hour without any acceleration.

Before ripping apart the block make sure that you have correct level of oil, and check for dilution on the dipstick (contamination) with another type of oil.

Easiest thing to do is drop a second hand or reconditioned in it if its bearing noise. i had this problem i had end bearings and rod bearings go.

Oil level is spot on, and there is no contaminents on the dip-stick. Also I have never seen the engine light come on.

I'd rather not drop a second hand engine in my car as there is no telling wht problems that engine might have. Rather have the work done on my car so I know what has been done to it.

[sandbar1000]

The noise is there from turn of the key onwards. I can always hear it when I am driving.




Oil level is spot on, and there is no contaminents on the dip-stick. Also I have never seen the engine light come on.

I'd rather not drop a second hand engine in my car as there is no telling wht problems that engine might have. Rather have the work done on my car so I know what has been done to it.

you have spun a main bearing bro......



davo.....

[johnno010684]

acarmody, i have exact same noise coming from left side of my engine! it has been there all along, but really faint, after giving car a bit of a work out it is really loud now. asked my local mechanic and he said change the oil and it will usually go away with the ecotecs, but id rather get it fixed properly. im gonna change oil and filter this weekend, if its still there ill take it to holden mechanic. let us no what happens with the noise and what the prob is when you get it fixed. cheers

[fitz_vt]

see post 20

[fitz_vt]

you got no idea of what your talkn bout mate???




davo.....

Ok to diagnose end bearing and rod bearing failure, you need to look out for a few things
1. too much or not enough oil.
2. Low Oil Pressure
3. Random Engine lights
After these come up, you will start to hear a knocking, or a rapping noise, this means an end bearing is gone (new short block or crankshaft and bearings or new engine.)
Rod bearing noise is a metallic knock which is loudest at about 60 kilometers per hour without any acceleration.

Before ripping apart the block make sure that you have correct level of oil, and check for dilution on the dipstick (contamination) with another type of oil.

Easiest thing to do is drop a second hand or reconditioned in it if its bearing noise. i had this problem i had end bearings and rod bearings go.

you have spun a main bearing bro......



davo.....

ok davo - as for not knowing what i'm talking about i've been in this territory before i just replaced my engine 3 weeks ago because of the same problem, i had slipped an main bearing you know the one on the bottom of the crankshaft, which connects the connecting rod to the crankshaft?.

The reason i was saying it would be easier to drop a new engine in it as you may have to have the crankshaft re machined if there is damage to it, but sure the bearings only cost about $500 from holden, so i assume you can find them somewhere else a tad cheaper all you have to do is remove the short block (bottom part) redo the piston bearings and the crankshaft main bearings.
** in my post before i used the wrong terminology i used end bearings instead of main bearings.

[vxcalais_01]

Take it easy Fitz you dont need to explain urself to anyone. If someone critisizes, its a forum, explain why so all can learn and see.... dont just bag people out.

Fitz, were there any lead up signs before ur bearings went ? Obviously you have dropped in a rebuilt motor ?

[vxcalais_01]

Dont harmonic balancers make a similar noise ? If it does turn out to be the Camshaft, go talk to MACE Engineering, as they will have a good cam for your 1.97's.

[sandbar1000]

ok davo - as for not knowing what i'm talking about i've been in this territory before i just replaced my engine 3 weeks ago because of the same problem, i had slipped an main bearing you know the one on the bottom of the crankshaft, which connects the connecting rod to the crankshaft?.

The reason i was saying it would be easier to drop a new engine in it as you may have to have the crankshaft re machined if there is damage to it, but sure the bearings only cost about $500 from holden, so i assume you can find them somewhere else a tad cheaper all you have to do is remove the short block (bottom part) redo the piston bearings and the crankshaft main bearings.
** in my post before i used the wrong terminology i used end bearings instead of main bearings

o.k, thought i would post some pics of the last one i rebuilt so we know where things go.....

bare block showing rebored cylinders and new cam bearings


final assembly stage


prior to rebuild

cost of rebuild....approx

rings......112
b/end bearings.....25
mains.......39
gasket kit....329

all parts supplied by mate in the trade....


machine work

rebore and hone
supplie and fit cam bearings, welch plugs etc
rezise conrods
spin wash all parts

$350,

Once again done by a mate......


heads

full reco, new valves, guides, couple of cracks plugged and welded, valve stem seals
$200

once again done by a mate...

engine removed and assembled by me.....

hope that gives you guys some info on whats involed in a rebuild of a s/c L67 v6......



davo.....

[gsxrdan]

Dont harmonic balancers make a similar noise ? If it does turn out to be the Camshaft, go talk to MACE Engineering, as they will have a good cam for your 1.97's.

Harmonic balancers do make a similar sound, but the noise doesn't go away unless you are solidly accelerating, ie pulling away from lights, otherwise your engine will rattle and clang all the time, but will still run ok (DONT keep driving it tho...).

Before main bearings slip (spooning each other) it will rattle (but not 'clang') on start up and wear a lot, then the noise kind of goes away when oil pressure cushions the gap - untill one day it's worn enought that one bearing shell slides onto the other - and out come the sockets.

...but i don't know what a slipped cam bearing sounds like...?

Have seen engines on this forum for as low as $200...

[fitz_vt]

Take it easy Fitz you dont need to explain urself to anyone. If someone critisizes, its a forum, explain why so all can learn and see.... dont just bag people out.

Fitz, were there any lead up signs before ur bearings went ? Obviously you have dropped in a rebuilt motor ?

Mine had a bit of an dip when idling i would be sitting at the traffic lights and the revs werent constant it was anwhere from 500RPM to 800 rpm, then i kept getting low oil pressure so i did an oil change, still got low pressure so took a look at the pump, then i started to get bearing noise only a slight bearing noise but then when going up a hill i head a klunk (i guess that was the bearing spinning out) and then it just sounded like very large rattle and vibration. i thought it was my sump constantly hitting the crossmember.

then took it to my mechanic who changed the oil, and there was metal shards in it, and then took the sump off to find a spun out bearing.