VT holden v6 lpg
Hi All...
Well i be thinking about LPG for the vt v6 3.8 series 1
I have done some maths...and I am wondering how it stacks up...
Firstly ..can I say no 2 drivers drive the same car the same way...and every car even if the same ..does not do the same...bearing in mind state of condition etc..
Now as everyone may be aware that the gov grant for lgp kicked off in 2009 in july...
And phase 1 will end in 30th june 2010 with the max rebate for used cars dropping from $1750 to $1500 bucks..
At present it seems the right time to get fitted for lpg ..the major wave has relaxed at all the LGP shops..
cause now they are having specials !
I so far rang a few and emailed a few..and some yet to reply..
the going rate for a vt v6 is $2500----$2600 so with max $1750 rebate...out of pocket..$750---850
do it post 30th june you loose $250 off your rebate...
I been told there are wreckers selling ..ex cabs lpg units and fitting for less than the going rate..and closer to $1800--2000 , so with rebate..your out pocket is $50----250
However in qld ....in bundaberg...and surrounds i not found a wrecker with a unit..for vt v6 sedan..
And no one here knows of anyone who will fit a used unit even if the tank is tested ok..
So any Qld persons or even nsw person know a place that sells 2nd hand lpg units for vt's and knows a fitter that will install and get you a rebated install...this is your chance to post a reply here...
Now in relation to maths for use...for this eg...i am basing lpg at .80cents/litre and unleaded at $1.30/litre
the tank size of the lpg will depend if you opt for in spare wheel fit ..or tank..and what size tank..
so that is variable
the vt has a 75 litre fuel tank...
Now as i mentioned before fitting prices seem to be standard at $2500---2600 venturi system..
the cheapest you can fit to a vt..v6 as far as i know...
now some places include with the fit... some or all of these...
1) free new spark plugs
2) free new spark leads for lpg
3) a free install tune and free post install tune in 1000--5000kms
4) a free tank of lpg fuel
5) a free upper cyclinder lube unit...
Now basically gass units do need a upper lube for the the engines...some do it and swear by it and some dont.
Everyone who has a lpg can place his 2 cents in the post for that also...
Its been said by holden and others that lpg use ..is 20% more fuel in lpg than petrol for the same workload...and there are workloads lpg can not do effectively
the starting base point for vt v6 is 11litres/100kms of lpg so per 100kms a cost of $8.80
its also been said the limit range is lpg use is up to 14litres /100kms
post that it uses unleaded..
so the figures for that are...
city and town driving
11/100km $8.80
12/100km $9.60
13/100km $10.40
14/100km $11.20
Now if anyone with a lpg has some real figures for this ..please post them..and how you got them etc..
Now for vt v6...unleaded will be taken to be full power ...not sugar base,,,
town driving
6.6l/100km $8.58 range 1135kms
7.0/100 9.10 1070
7.5/100 9.75 1000
8.0/100 10.40 935
8.5/100 11.05 880
9.0/100 11.70 830
9.5/100 12.35 790
*********
city driving
10/100 13.00 750
10.5/100 13.65 715
11.0/100 14.30 680
11.5/100 14.95 650
12/100 15.60 625
12.5/100 16.25 600
13/100 16.90 575
13.5/100 17.55 555
14.0/100 18.20 535
Anyone outside the range in lpg or petrol..is a petrol head and does not need to know this info...LOL
However it does tell them what the cost of the speeding and zoooming has on there pocket...LOL
Personally i think the holden v6 is the best option for lpg
and from vs ---- onwards the best engines to do it...given the factory was building them for lpg and supercharge and turbo and sugar base fuel..
No later holden past 1998 is really any better in terms of fuel use...despite the extra computer junk...
Now i am interested in hearing from users of lpg short term and long term..
i am interested in hearing from installers
i am interested in hearing from wreckers and 2nd hand installers too..
mainly in qld...and upper nsw..
for my own interest...
however i open the floor to other states etc...in the interest of all..
if you are a installer say what you will do and give with your package..and price..and time to do job..
and notice to do job...
if your a wrecker state if the pack --lpg kit is fully there or not..and whats needed along with price
Well i hope this gets some interest and facts flowing..
GRA = REAL HP
16 yrs fitting gas dont buy a second hand unit from a wrecker as its more trouble than its worth and if you ring around for a quote to fit this second hand kit you will more than likely be told there is no warranty on this second hand junk , end of the day you get what you pay for and doing it on the cheap can cost you more in the long term . my two cents
I have had 3 LPG cars so far and my advice would be to steer clear of the mixer ring type systems. They were initially designed for stationary engines that operate at a single RPM. IMPCO is probably your best budget system. The two main thing you need to understand with gas is expect backfires. Doesn't matter what people tell you. An LPG fueled car will eventually backfire and the only way to avoid this would be to install gas injection so your manifold isn't full of fuel that can combust in the first place. Secondly expect a lack in performance. This is due to the restriction that is placed in the intake. Once again gas injection will solve this issue. The only issue with LPG injection is the price and if you get a dodgy installer you might get swarf in the engine.
thanks guys so far
i tend to agree on the used lpg thing...specailly if there goin to charge you nearly top dollar anyway!
and i agree also injected gas is the way to go....and yes i had my fair share of blow backs in the air intake...doing hissy fits and bad running..most often it was a spark causes issue...or vapor caused issue..
However i was told with my first lgp to do the following and perhaps its still valid..
Always hold the computer managed ones in man overirde petrol mode...to start ...and hold it there till you hear the engine has warmed fully up..so that is from a cold start about 4-5kms
and run it on petrol cool down before you shut it down..
check the spark often...i had one of those spark booster coils and spark booster on the ht leads...
i think from memory one one car did i add a lube to the tank..
i got an old nissan bluebird in the yard ...it runs on LPG only! we had it for years...
never had a issue at all with it..
had to screw in the adapter to fill it...
when we got it it had the petrol tank removed...
that 200b engine is way old....
and i dont think it every blew when we drove it...and it dont have any management ..its a carbi adapter type..
taxi have a lot running with gas and petrol..and when i drove a taxi..it was 2 tanks petrol 1 tank gas use....
thanks..so far for the current feedbacks...
I put a second hand tank in my last car but that was because it was just a work car. I had that tank tested, fitted with new fittings and then painted so you could almost say it was like a new tank anyway but the rest of the installation was brand new. That install cost me about $1800 from memory but that was about 3 years ago and I'm in Adelaide. My current car is a VT and this set up is all brand new. I had it done about 2 years ago for $2400 and that is with all the things you mentioned in your prices. It is a mixer ring set up and again I've had no problems with it. It starts on petrol and uses some petrol when the engine is under stress but it does drink a bit more gas than petrol and power is down a little but it's not huge anyway and I have found it idles a lot smoother than it did on petrol. You have to sum up what you use your car for to determine what set up to use, in my case I couldn't justify the extra cost of gas injection for what I want as it's just a stock V6 that get's me from A to B. I have had gas cars for a while and have never had a backfire so perhaps I'm lucky but I do keep the ignition system in good condition.
GRA = REAL HP
Originally Posted by VSteve
IMPCO systems were made for stationary engines to begin with , LPG doesnt back fire its the engine's base tune that causes the stray spark from old leads or spark plugs worn out , a lean mixture can be casued by poor mixture control or poor intake gaskets and seals leaking air into the mix , a worn valve face or burnt valve can cause a back fire a crook lifter holding open the valve at the point of ignition , driver error when starting with foot on the throttle , incorrect spark plug gap , incorrect spark plug selection .
I 100% agree with you, i have been installing LPG for many many years now. And the only time i fine it backfiring, is when 1 car is poorly mantain (refer to above) 2 wasn't installed correctly (gas fitters fault) or 3 CHEAP LPG parts (there is alot of cheap and nasty stuff, comming from over seas and beleive me they are SHIT HOUSE). If you are going to get your car fitted to LPG, i would NOT go for the cheapest price. Ask them what equipment are they using, is it GENUINE (there is alot of copy's out there), what gas tank are they fitting? is your wires soldiers? spilt tube? etc etc I would also ask them to show you a finish product of theirs (you want it to look nice and neat)
NEVER LATE IN A 355ci
thanks guys....and thanks some fitters
we got a few mentioned in my quotes...
elko
sprintgas
eurogas
a clone version of impco...what ever that is?
Can you guys tell us about these brands or others ?
extended cover for those who get a upper lube unit and fee for 3 year 100000km upper cover $300
lube unit fitted $100--150
getting info out of lpg fitters for quotes...is like pulling teeth...they dont like to say much...but there price..frankly...
1 has quoted a range of 400kms from a 70litres of usable gas....
if i had to use 17 litres to do a 100 kms....i be unimpressed...
And some state thay sell the wheel ..hole tank...and claim its 33litres...and some say its 44litres usable...
and 33 would get you 300kms...range.....and a 44... 400kms.they are both cheap....and the quotes for systems with them fitted is...
2400----2550
i like to know the real size...of usable gas for them...""fitters got any ideas on size""
if 70 litres has a range of 650plus ...kms
i think despite the fact,,,small tanks for wheel hole take up less..there there for people who can not afford to loose wheel space...for whatever reason...
and bigger tanks people dont care about boot...cause most are a 2 person car...or 2.5 family
small tank people would commute to work on gas and are happy to refill cause they are on the road passing stations...
large tanks are for people who want more grand touring....or are lazy commutors who dont want to pull up for gas top ups so often waiting in the huge cues with the coles dockets in the car when the air con buggers up...right..
well i live in the country...and its a fair trip 100kms in and 100 back to real shops
i be wanting the big tank...more than the little one....
cause i can fill it...and it gives me range...and i can loose the boot space..cause all my kids are grown up..and only 1 at home..part time...
so i know my milage...
i know my use
i know my need
i know what i pay for fuel..\
and can be seen from my maths...i like to know
its hard to get to look at finsihed products...but i agree workmanship is key..as are the parts they use.
What do our own member fitters think is a good price?
Do we have membership discounts ? from the site...should we?
Whats a good brisbane price //and sydney price and vic price...for a vt?
and what parts do you guys use...? brands etc...
And what to you give with your fittings..?
My old ED fairmont, yes a ford sorry for mentioning that word on here, had an IMPCO system fitted. I drove about 150,000km using this setup prior to selling the car.
Some of my observations from this car:
Power was reduced, but bottom end torque was actually better
- This is important as the V6 is a more revvy engine, so a larger impact is assumed
I did have issues with the mixer adjustment, resulting in a blown air intake box.
- This is quite common with a lot of LPG systems. To me this was a concern as my wife drove the car often, and her becoming stuck would not have been great. I went to 2 seperate LPG centres trying to fix this (several trips) and ended up with the original instlaller(who had since retired) needing to rectify it. (This was in WA)
Using LPG I averaged 16L/100km (just over 20% increase from ULP)
- As expected really.
On country trips I didn't have the high reduction in fuel economy vs city driving
- This was a concern for me. Often there was minimal $ saving compared to running ULP. Often I would just use ULP on country trips. Also the engine didn't want to rev hard on LPG, so overtaking became more a concern. In your case living remote, this may impact you more? I'm not sure if this is the same on the V6.
Towing
- The installer did not recommend towing heavy items whilst in LPG mode. He said the LPG burnt hotter, and with the extra load of towing it caused extreme conditions for the engine. Often I towed a large/heavy boat; so would need to use ULP.
LPG Tank size
I went for the boot mounted tank that sits behind the rear seat to get the max size. Most of the time this was ok, except on holidays when you have excess luggage. Also I did want to fit a sub woofer encloser and with the LPG tank already in the best position I had to have a not so effective encloser; that I had to build so I could easily remove as it had to be in the main part of the boot.
Overall I did like the LPG system. The backfiring / blowing up the intake box was a concern not only for break down, was it dangerous? Around town it was cheaper to run than ULP. I have added a pic to show the size of the tank in the boot.
I sold the car and now have a GEN III and have not investigated getting LPG installed. The main reason being I now live in Qld and the difference between LPG+20% to ULP is not so great.
Hope this helps
QldKev
Attachment 89865
Last edited by QldKev; 29-03-2010 at 09:47 AM. Reason: added pic
thanks qld kev...great feedback story...and i have to say i had the same sort of experience with my na ford...and i was not mentioning it...but you set the standard on that...
In no particular order:
I would suggest getting the largest tank that you can, subject to you being willing to give up the boot space and access to it through the rear seat. You will use ~30% more LPG than petrol and the extra fill ups will get old very quickly (although you do get to avoid the "discount day" ques with LPG). The extra fuel use should be the same proportionally highway and urban. Set up as it is meant to be (not how I actually run it) I get something like ~16L/100 km urban, ~10L/100km highway.
Keep asking the questions about what you actually get with any conversion in detail. In my opinion it is hard to go past the factory approved kit. At the very least it means that any problems will certainly be with the install rather than the kit or components.
The factory kit uses Impco components. It includes a MemCal that has a seperate ignition timing map for LPG, petrol start assist and a "valve saver" mode that adds petrol at high engine loads to control exhaust valve temperature. It also maintains the anti-theft functionality, something not all kits do. The current fuel gauge will read whichever fuel is being run on. The lines are pre-made (= neat) and stiffer rear springs included.
The upper cylinder "lubes" are a waste of time and money. Exhaust valve damage is an issue of heat and only then on sustained high speed (load) conditions. Correct ignition timing (on LPG) and the petrol cooling with the factory MemCal avoids most of it.
In considering the economics of LPG, note that the supermarket discount coupons are worth ~30% more because you still get the 4 cents per litre discount but buy more litres (= more $$$ saved).
You will have to change spark plugs every 20K km - so + ~$20 per year.
Used parts can be OK - I did my own car using used parts, plug and play, without even putting kits through the mixer or converter, but you might want to check the rules regarding the government rebate. I think that you have to provide written evidence of the provenance of the parts used in the conversion. This might be problematic with used parts. The copper lines and the rubber parts have to be new with any new install regardless.
Regardless of the causes an LPG fueled car will backfire in the real world. Think of a room full of air and gas at the correct mixture to ignite. That is the state of your inlet manifold when running on gas. Also next door in the cylinder you have combustion occurring many times per second. All you need is the smallest flame to come back up the inlet valve and you have a nice big bang. So unless you can afford gas vapor injection then you should be stocking up on airboxes.
sorry if this is a little off topic, but i got gas installed a year ago and with my system once the car is moving i cant change from petrol to gas, some have said you can disable this, others have said no you cant because its in the memcal, anyone have any ideas, its frustrating for them times when you want to quickly go to petrol to overtake a heap of cars for example
I've been running on gas for a few years now and haven't had one backfire yet. Might be lucky but even my mates haven't had a backfire.
GRA = REAL HP
Used parts can be OK - I did my own car using used parts, plug and play, without even putting kits through the mixer or converter, but you might want to check the rules regarding the government rebate. I think that you have to provide written evidence of the provenance of the parts used in the conversion. This might be problematic with used parts. The copper lines and the rubber parts have to be new with any new install regardless.
DO IT YOURSELF gas conversions are so wrong and would be hard to claim the rebate coz you dont have a tax invoice from a credited installer , And if you have a gas fueled fire and explosion causing injury to you or others then questions will be asked as to who did the install , its like doing your own electrical work around the house and something goes wrong , not a leg to stand on in the end and your insurance company will void your policy .
VSteve, there is nothing wrong with ring/mixer type setup. Plugs, leads and tune are the key to all setups. IMPCO is not a budget system, but one of the main world wide developers of LPG systems in the world ! Sprintgas is a Aussie company i believe. I have an AMR Impco copy 6 years on now, only 2 backfires in that time, 1 from a broken lead from a mechanic and the other i think i was hitting the pedal when switching form petrol to lpg.
The mixers are an excellent system, there is a guy with a Raptor Supercharger running a mixer setup up, no dramas... I have a VX11 Super 6 in the family running a mixer Impco system. People get gas for a reason, and that is to save money. Mine was my work car for 5 years, doing 500km a week just to work and back. So it was well worth it, and still is for carting the family around endlessly.
One workfriend has his VY Crewman on LPG and has the Injector System. LPG injectors fouled up, and Shell had to replace the system for him. THe injector system have added cost of needing the injectors to get serviced and cleaned out.
well if the average runaround used 17 litres...per 100kms of lpg ..that be at av of $0.80 $13.60.....
if you used 13.60 of petrol...that be 10.4 litres at $1.30/litre
if we are saying 17litres/100 in lgp is the real 20% extra on fuel... and someone here has said it can use really 30% and we take that as city cycle use..of 30% so 25.5litres/100 of gas...
which would be $20.40 to city run a lpg
that figure would be equal to petrol use of 15.7l/100 in petrol...
i never seen a vt engine use that in petrol...as standard driving on any conditions in the city...
( that means no rev challenge or burnouts or what ever...)
we talking normal operation of the car...driving as if we have a cop following ...
doing speed limits...and driving with safety...
my normal driving style in country or city is conserative...
i flow with traffic
i use the speed limits...and cruise control and speed alert...and gps
i have times where i might be in a hurry ..and times where i have all day...
my city driving threw brisbane..or when i visit my home in sydney....city cycle never goes over 12.5l/100 in petrol in a vt.
my current drive to and from shops and around to footy coaching etc... shows 8.0l/100 av in the vt...
so i use to paying for and using city driving $16 per 100 max... and country and open driving $10.40
given what we said here in the post so far...shows lgp for my driving style is going to save me NOTHING! if the 30% and 20% figures are true...
and i am comparing E10 as my 1.30 fuel....as that is what i am using and have...
I know i get more milage from unleaded reg and super unleaded....but not enough to pay the extra...when not full loaded...
Fully loaded would be 5 people...and boot full and roof racks...or trailer or boat or carvan or a float....
and then unleaded and super--unleaded gives the extra punch...
And i am sure everyone you used E10 /normal and extra unleaded has done there own test on that and found the same results...
if you drive normally...
so if i dropped to lgp...which my driving style...it have to better 17--25 litre of lpg /100
i be getting gas....for these reasons....
1) 2nd fuel option
2) increase range
3) savings in cost per km
4) self protection when price wars or shortage of petrol fuel causes fuel price spikes in the country areas.
None of thoses are in that order of peference....but they be my reasons...
i am not a full blood greenie...but i consider dual fuel as a my aid to the cause....
So far given the rebate and prices ...and figures people have quotes for use in a lpg car...i would do better on petrol.
Its also been said that given the rebate and 5 year lgp fit plan ..the government plans on pushing the user pays tax price of lpg to the same range as petrol....it just wants more on it...to gain...
Now no one has mentioned the HOLDEN stated and tested 11litre lgp /100kms from their advertised speil on option fitted lpg to vt's when they first got released...
Why was 11/100 stated....?
It must have been a open road test...or toll ways or whatever...
No one would have a lpg if it used 30% then petrol...its not worth it...your wasting money...
it has to be 20%.......to place it in the hunt...
So i really like someone..who has lgp..that dont tow gear around the aussie...a city only driver...a country driver only too...or
someone
that drives and use the fuel I use to try there lgp only for the same use...and test it out...
so we compare apples to apples...
we need a person who has a healthy vt engine prefered a non supercharge v6 sedan
and be able toi manually over ride and sellect lpg or petrol...
who can match my city and country petroluse with E10
test the same use with LPG...
That will proove the real worth of LPG...cause as i said i good on fuel use now...
thanks those for their efforts so far...
And i hope i found a real tester to help sort real figures out...
Well from personal experience I know first hand how bad simple mixer complex converter type systems are. They are very primitive in design. Impco and other complex mixer simple converter systems are a little better at metering fuel but still can't compare to fuel injection where a ECU knows exactly how much fuel is being delivered to the engine. I have a wideband AFR gauge and every time you plant your foot on petrol you get the same ratio. Try it on LPG and it can be anywhere from 10:1 to 16:1. The system is simply to simple to meter fuel correctly all of the time, under all load and RPM conditions. You should look into putting a burst plate or something similar on your super 6 to give the gasses when it backfires somewhere to go. A backfire under boost is also more violent than a NA car and your positive displacement Eaton wont give way to the gasses without something slipping or breaking.
Now no one has mentioned the HOLDEN stated and tested 11litre lgp /100kms from their advertised spiel on option fitted lpg to vt's when they first got released..
I know they claimed 11L/100km for the V6 Manual running on ULP (city). I've never seen a claim for that on LPG. Even the V6 auto they only claimed to get 12L/100km. Maybe the 11L/100km on LPG was country mode.
Holden also claims my VX can get: V8 Automatic Sedan City/Highway: 13.5 / 8.5 (L/100km)
If I drove really easy I may be able to get 13.5, but real world I get 16L around town;
and highway @ 8.5L/100, I wish, only once ever have I seen it set under 10L/100km
Even in this autoweb article
LPG Commodore Can Drive From Sydney to Adelaide Without Refueling and With Gas To Spare - AutoWeb News
they used a bit more than 20% diff between ULP and LPG; to get about 11L/100km from LPG in Highway .
But even allowing 20% more usage
If LPG is 80c/litre X 20% extra would equal .96c/L; still a lot cheaper than ULP. But don't forget to add servicing costs / the $$ spent diagnosing all the faults in the LPG setup over the life.
QldKev
Cheap,nasty&full o shit
Not having a good at you, but like i said before i have been installing gas for a very long time and every super 6 that i install on gas is on SVI system (even my personally car is on it too) Just seen and heared a few workshop having to replace motor/supercharger when they backfire on the normally system (it just not worth it for me owning and running a workshop)
NEVER LATE IN A 355ci
GRA = REAL HP
16yrs fitting LPG to many different cars using many different systems from positive to negative feed systems open loop to closed loop vapour liquid injection or mixer style they all have one thing in common the crap gas we use in them , second biggest problem is the install itself as not all fitters follow the directions from the suppliers or choose to make it up as they go along , sloppy wiring dodgy crimp terminals dodgy earths or poor earths , third problem is the base engine tune and condition of the engine , worn spark plugs split vacum hoses and gaskets , failing ignition systems from coils to coil packs poor leads , corroded terminals , worn throttle shafts , etc etc .
well as i said I need to find someone with the smae results in E10 fuel use that i get ..try lpg for the same..
i figure there be someone that gets the same proformance from there vt....that i do...
i dont tune special for it...i had the original vt and now the replacement get the same result...one a 1999 engine and one a 2002 or later cause it was from a vy with low kms..
i have a licence to drive everything...and have....even on the track or rally...in 2 wheels and 4 wheels and boat....
so i do care for engines..and love to hear them tick....
from mini mods to drags to super v8 to whatever...
i have a turbo 4wd troopy 1995 model 4.2 diesel...its done 450k plus kms it needs just a water pump now...
most of my cars and bikes get great milage and give great returns...
i beleive in keeping the oily bits running right..
its been a while since i had a super moded engine...given i had a dada and grandad mechanic and fitters..and i did 3-4 years in marine fitter...and 6 years in the navy tarined to do weapons electrical and marine fitting...
i say i can get the most from a engine whatever...
But surely there must be people out there ....who can better my use..and proformance that have a lpg ...
i mean they are the ones best to have lgp and should,,,
not the rev heads who get poor milage from a standard fuel base.. and look that not a person go at anyone...
my point here is pure...interest in lgp before wasting money...its that simple...
and i dont believe 1/2 the stuff i hear from most of the fitters i spoken too ..cause the message is so far different i sure we not even talking about lpg...
and i visited 3 now.....in person to see the fiting...
and 2 finished jobs ...a high school kid could have done better with a metal works skill .....
loose straps..and clamps...and doggy wirings...
I got asked to leave when i said something to the guy while the owner was there...
i place had 3 customers from recent new installs in there wanting repairs..and complaining about the standard of workmanship and lack of proformance.
i think the federal government is lucky not to have a equal same thing with lpg as it did with pink bats ..from what i seen in the shops..
not saying out fitters here are super gods or are poor skilled either...
just stating i visited....and that put me off a bit...but more made me feal lgp guys dont know or understand there product...
and while they have work with waiting lists..dont give a bugger either..
like austar fitters go do it ...........and then they send around a reaL tech who fixes them up and fault finds...because the others got rushed or skills of the fitter had been understandard...
so i note 1 of our fitters here has said the same thing..because he prob had to fix others crap work...or got work as a result of bad words about others...
but i will keep plodding on...to try and find the facts....
codeunknown, you might want to check your maths.
Using the ~+30% figure:
LPG at $0.67/litre is equivalent to petrol at 1.3 X $0.67 = $0.87/litre
Even at $0.80/litre, 1.3 X $0.80 = $1.04/litre
Of course what really matters is the total fuel cost so the more fuel you use the quicker the payback time.
Figure out how many litres of fuel you currently use in a year - distance travelled X litres/ km = an answer in litres - and multiply that by the (average) price of petrol you pay (per litre). This is how much fuel costs you per year now.
Multiply the annual petrol litres by 1.3, then multiply that by the expected (average) price of LPG. This is what fuel will cost you on LPG. The difference between the two numbers is the saving.
With the rebate a typical payback time will be 6-8 months.
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