LPG Gas in a 98 manual VT commodore

[JoeFish]

Hey Commodore clan,

I have made a decision to get LPG in my car through TorqueGas in Caloundra, Sunshine Coast next week, as they are known to be the most experienced company in the area.

I have talked to other mechanics, and most have said to not do it. But than I have talked to people on gas and they think it's great. Then I talked to the guys at TorqueGas, asked them about 1 million questions on the phone and in person and it really does seem that it's worth it.

My VT has done 358,000km and I actually really do take care of her, I've had to fix many things. But since I do between 650-1000km/week, i would pay off the LPG installation easily within a year.

I know this is a touchy subject and everyone has their own opinions. But i would like to hear what you guys have to say. I have been told that if your car is not tuned properly than you WILL have problems and things can go real bad, but if it's all installed well with good tuning than you're living the dream!

Cheers,
Joe

[MikeCuzzy]

Well for people like us who cover heaps of kms, I reckon LPG would be great. I fully intend to get it, as like you I'd pay it off within a year. However my car has travelled 100,000km more than yours. So sadly, I think I will need to rebuild the engine before I put LPG in it.

Given your kms, I reckon go for LPG. But if you engine is original, factor in it may blow to high heaven.

[DAKSTER]

LPG is the go. You will never go back. Ask them about liquid injection, cost more but the benefits are huge.

I recommend T&D mechanical services in Caboolture for the fitment, Tony is nothing but helpful and actually seems to give a shit about his customers.

I installed gas on a Fairmont with 340k on the clock, it had near 500k when I wrote it off, never had any problems with the motor.

[jr689]

Definitely go for it mate, I got mine converted to vapour injection back in February of this year and haven't looked back!

Cost $3,200 ($200 of this was for a donut tank to go in the spare tyre well, something I highly recommend getting so you don't lose any boot space... Reasoning behind the extra $200 was because of the tank costing slightly more than a conventional one and more labour involved in fitting it... Apparently had to drop the petrol tank to fix the donut and what not ) and yea $1,500 rebate from the government bringing it down to $1,700 out of my own pocket! The rebate is slightly lower now, I think it drops $250 every financial year or something??

I currently use on average 13.0-13.5L/100km's mostly of which is city driving mind you (80% city - 20% highway), however it doesn't seem to get really much lower than that even if I do a lot of highway driving

Also with the age of your car I probably wouldn't recommend getting liquid injection purely cause of the initial outlay and how much your car is actually worth (reason why I didn't opt for it) but then again it all depends on how long you intend on keeping the car and whether or not you will be able to recoup the initial investment... I definitely would at the very least get vapour injection, much newer technology over the old mixer type and you don't even notice it change over to gas from petrol it's as seamless as anything!

[jr689]

Also mine is manual as well so you don't notice the power loss anywhere near as much as you would in auto, it's pretty much non existent to be honest ay...

My old man on the other hand has a mixer system on his pajero and it is an auto and it is quite noticeable haha!

[JoeFish]

Wow, thank you very much for all your feedback!

I am actually not too sure of the kind of setup i'll be getting in regards to vapour injection etc. But he showed me a VT SS that just had it all fitted and like someone said above, the change from Fuel to LPG is not noticable. His car still sounds insane and also you don't lose noticeable power with the Manual (as previously stated as well).

Cheers to DAKSTER for reffering me to someone I have heard of him, but I have also been told that TorqueGas as amazing as they've been doing it for over 25 years and also they are literally down the road from me. Thanks for that mate!

This is something TorqueGas will probably go through with me after i get it done, But are there any special tips to help look after your car when it has been converted to LPG? Eg: Run certain cleaners through the system? etc

Once again thank you very much,
Joe

[jr689]

You can use something like this:

Flashlube Valve Saver Automatic Lubrication Kit (Two Remaining) *BNIB* | eBay

I bought that exact one but haven't installed it yet as I'm slack as!

Also you should change leads and plugs more often than usual as more often than not bad experiences that people have had with LPG can be pinpointed to these two items...

[JoeFish]

Thanks guys!

Well i just got it done today, and they replaced my leads, coils and the thing that the coils sit on. Which all cost around $600...lol =|

And as i was driving around after my car backfired. I took it back and they said it will be something else and that they would have to look deeper into it to find out. It cracked the air filter box so they fixed that but I'm just hoping it won't happen again. They said that my valves could be a little out because of wear and tear...but I actually expected them to tell me that THAT might happen BEFORE I got all this done.

Anyone else heard of this or is experiencing things such as this?

Ta,
Joe

[JoeFish]

Also JR689 I think your eBay link would be something i should defiantly look into getting. I'll see what they say about this (most likely say to not do it or something lol). I just don't want to void their 2 year warrenty.

[RK5TAR]

I recently bought a 98 VT manual and it already had gas. Its great and has plenty of guts for my needs. Mine has backfired once or twice. I dont have an airbox, mine has a pod filter so it just "farts" quietly if it backfires lol. I used to have an EL on gas with the airbox, and even though I had the proper LPG clips for the airbox, it always managed to blow it.
The ford used to backfire after any mechanic had messed with it and they had stuffed around with the air mix thingy under the bonnet.

[strgas]

358 000 kms is alot of kms for any engine have you considered the wear factor at these kms valve guides and seats , condition of gaskets and seals , while it runs ok on petrol a change to LPG at such high miles is where you really get to see how good the engine is , after converting many cars to gas i've seen alot of small air leaks or worn valves cause problems that customers then believe is covered by the warranty when in fact it's not , depending on which system is fitted in the end weather it be ring mixer positive feed , mixer system negative feed , vapour injection , liquid injection , base tune is the biggest factor in any gas conversion , changing of spark plugs and leads is always recommended to a more suitable product .

[JoeFish]

Thanks Strgas, They gave it a full tune and replaced leads, coils and the thing that the coils sit on.

I presume it wouldn't be cheap to fix any leaks and valves etc??

[JoeFish]

Car is no longer backfiring and is running quite smooth Same as before! I took my car back and they said there was one cracked spark plug (on the new set they put on) so they replaced the whole set for me...so they said. And they also retuned it and all this jazz.

The only problem I am facing is trying to start the car when I have it on gas, especially in the morning...It just wont start, Once it turns over i have to rev it heaps and switch it to fuel and keep revving because If i don't, it will just stall.

Once i put the clutch in and the Rev's go down, it will just go right down to 0 and stall. So i had to drive around the streets near my house without having to stop at any signs.

I have got it on Fuel now, so tomorrow morning when i go to work i'll see what happens. If this persists i will be paying another visit.

any1 experience any similar problem?

Cheers,
Joe

[JoeFish]

PS: I have the Ventura mix or something. I think i spelt that right. I did not get SVI or SIV because it was rather expensive

[RK5TAR]

maybe they have the mix wrong? none of my gas cars ever had a stalling issue like that. take it back.

[JoeFish]

Cheers mate, I that's exactly what I'm going to do.

[strgas]

sounds likes its to lean when cold , hard to set the tune for hot and cold running condition as there is very little enrichment for cold starting its a balncing act between hot and cold settings .

[JoeFish]

ahhh ok. so does that mean they need to do some re-tuning to get it better?

Also, my car hunts so much when I'm in 3rd, 4th and 5th. Always around the 60-80km/h mark. It's so annoying because you can't cruise on the highway without bouncing back and forth.

[jr689]

The only problem I am facing is trying to start the car when I have it on gas, especially in the morning...It just wont start, Once it turns over i have to rev it heaps and switch it to fuel and keep revving because If i don't, it will just stall.

Mine always starts up on petrol which I'm guessing is to avoid this situation...

On cold starts it will take about 3 minutes or so (I vaguely remember my installer saying once the water temp gets to 40 degrees or something it changes :/) before it changes over automatically, and then on warm starts it will generally change over in about 10 seconds.

And yea I haven't once had a backfire... I've recently changed over to one of Mace's CAI's with a pod so I guess I may have now and haven't noticed :/ but yea for the odd 7 months I had the stock intake I never had one!

[JoeFish]

Well it does stall while starting on fuel AND gas every morning. I just have to start and rev it straight away and drive off and not let the revs dip down to 0 while changing gears. If the car has been sitting for more than 2-3 hours you can just turn it on without having to rev it a bit strraight away and maybe drive without letting it idle at all.

I left my GF's the other night and it stalled at the lights on Gas and i had to wait about 30 seconds so it could start again..lucky traffic wasn't real busy!!! 0_o

Someone has said that it could be one of the censors and should be hooked up to a scantool....what are your thoughts??

[jr689]

Mmm yea I'd be taking it back to the installer as I'm guessing this has only popped up after getting LPG??

Might have something to with the Idle control valve or something along those lines I'm not really sure :/ I'd say it's something mechancical though not tune related as it's doing it on both petrol and LPG and yea my car has the petrol tune and LPG tune (so I've been led to believe) so they work independantly of each other, I guess yours would be the same?

Could also have something to do with the LPG mixer in the intake restricting air flow somewhat... I really have no idea, just throwing idea's out there but yea definitely take it back to him, it's their duty to make it right for you!

[DAKSTER]

Not that I am any kind of an expert, but as far as I know tuning dual fuel is a compromise between the needs of the different fuels, hence neither of them are ever truly properly tuned.

To have 'a petrol tune and LPG tune' that are independant of each other, its my assumption that you would need a dual map? If I werent about to switch to gas only, I would definitely be looking at a dual map system I think.

If the car is stalling on both petrol and gas, it sounds like a more general problem than just a tune. Does it idle ok? Is it possible that its something as simple as a displaced vacuum line or something like that?

[JoeFish]

Thanks guys,

Oh the idle changes like the weather...sometimes it will idle just below 1,000RPM like normal, other days it will idle on 500RPM and bounce up and down which makes it sound like a purring cat...and also it might even idle around 300 - 400 RPM. It can be really bad when this happens because i might put the clutch in while turning into a shop and it will go right down to 300RPM and i lose power steering and have to rev it a little to get it back (haha). scared me first time it happened.

I am defiantly going to take it back as i have already phone them and told them. It's just very inconvenient and should not happen.

[DAKSTER]

Thanks guys,

Oh the idle changes like the weather...sometimes it will idle just below 1,000RPM like normal, other days it will idle on 500RPM and bounce up and down which makes it sound like a purring cat...and also it might even idle around 300 - 400 RPM. It can be really bad when this happens because i might put the clutch in while turning into a shop and it will go right down to 300RPM and i lose power steering and have to rev it a little to get it back (haha). scared me first time it happened.

I am defiantly going to take it back as i have already phone them and told them. It's just very inconvenient and should not happen.

Yep I agree. Decent customer service should include a test drive, the problem should have been rectified before they returned the car to you.

Regarding products you can use on your engine, my gas guy recommends the flash lube system as posted by jr689 above. They even install it and warranty it. I dont use it personally (they didnt offer it when my gas was fitted or I may have bought it), and as far as I know its caused no problems by not using it, but it certainly seems like a reasonable product and worth using.

[JoeFish]

Yeah mate i saw that and then when i went into their shop they had it for sale on a stand. Plus they said they'd fit it as well for a total of $110 when i get the 3000km service. I have already done 1000 in just over a week so it won't be far away.

For 100 bucks, it's really worth it especially if it will help keep my valves going etc etc...I'm actually not sure if i really need it lol meh...better to be safe then sorry.