Large Wheels
My son wanted to put 19" rims and wheels on his VT and have it lowered at the same time. Was talked into 20". Took it back because of rubbing and after shaving a bit off the guards was told it was ok. Was told on purchase that the car had to be roadworthy and insurable. 3 months on and the right rear tyre has blown at 80km/h causing considerable damage to the steering and suspension of the car, not to mention 3 tyres and mags are wrecked. Tyre company doesn't want to know us but we have been told that those size wheels should never have been put on that car. No camber kit was installed and you can see that the outside of the rear tyres has never even touched the road. My question is...does anyone know the largest wheels/tyres that should be put on that car. I know that this is a bit long but I just need a little advice before its lawyers at 40 paces.
Donating Member
What state do you live in?Originally Posted by concerned mum
Banned
Lowering of any IRS car needs a camber kit installed so the whole tyre is sitting nicely on the road. Tyre place should have told you this.
Got Evo?
Pending on the state you live in (WA and SA i know of)19s should have been the biggest rim size it should be fitted with unless engineered. Camber kit most definately with IRS as Mack has already stated.
Last edited by EvoVIIIJDM; 18-01-2008 at 02:13 PM. Reason: hakhawk had a waa
smooth moderator
the 2" rule only applies to certain states. so, until we find out what state they live in, please refrain from offering potentially incorrect information.
id be looking more at the lowering side of things, how low did he go? without the camber kit, it sounds like the wheels have scrubbed out on the inside edge, which has caused the blow out?
did the tyre place lower the car for you, did they mention the need of a camber kit at any stage?
Banned
Well, VT GTS ran 18" mags, so that would be the largest out of factory.
Fun IS easier with an 8
Consumer Watchdog I'm afraid if the tyre fitting place won't play. They are professionals that have been paid for a professional service. They should know the laws, risks and prerequisites and if none of these were told to the customer then it's up to them to resolve it.
It may have to be lawyers at 40 paces... particularly if they haven't done anything about it by now.
I haven't lost my mind, it's backed up on tape somewhere
WTF?!?!
It's pretty stupid of them not mentioning the camber kit when they lower the car especially if they knew what size wheels you're gonna put on.
Also you need to consider the correct offset when buying new wheels especially big ones as they are more likely to get tires scrubbing the guards.
If you can provide the state that you live in there will be people here that will be able to give you the correct place to look for the set of road rules for your state.
This is a topic that has been discussed alot in this forum, and whilst there are different opinions on the various rules, generally there is a way to get the exact information required. I imagine your lawyers may be able to assist as well,but if you can quote the correct legislation to the people that fitted you with the incorrect tyre size you may be able to avoid it going that far.
From my experience in these matters the first person to loose their cool in the argument that ensues usually looses. So keep your cool where necessary.
Also take heaps of photos and document what was said. Sit down and get your son to write out his recollection of the conversation. Also decide what you want out of the exchange do you want them to fix the damage to the car, do you want the existing mags fitted correctly etc etc.
Out of interest what type of mag was fitted? Also what was the rim width and tyre dimensions? Sounds to me as they may have had excess stock and talked him into getting something extreme?
Best of luck!
Thanks guys for all the responses...we live in Qld....the tyre place did the lowering and fitted "King Springs - performance replacement coil springs"is all it says on the box...camber kit was never mentioned...we have taken heaps of photos and you can clearly see where the tyre has rubbed on the inside of the wheel arch and also it has actually caused the metal to fold up in a couple of places....I guess this is what caused the tyre to blow.... we are looking to get the suspension repaired and whells/rims replaced...don't know what size tyres/rims they are but will lt you know...tyre guy said they were specifically made for that type of car....wish us luck.
thats a bummer for sure .. but be carefull as he has been driving the car with chafing tryes ..he could come a bit unstuck there .. but good luck anyway !
Donating Member
If you go to the attached files section of the linked post you will see a link to the Queensland Vehicle Modification Guidelines. If you search through it you will find the rules concerning the lowering of vehicles and the changing of wheels (this is only a guide though): Vehicle Modifications
Last edited by dufus; 19-01-2008 at 12:27 AM. Reason: typo
Donating Member
2" rule doesn't exist in WA man. SA (and maybe NT) only. And not for long
17" or 18" will be fine without major mods, you shouldn’t need a camber kit with 17"s but if your keeping the 20" invest in some camber castor adjustments. You could go one better and get coil over suspension from manufactures like tien or noltec or Nolathane. If you can't afford that go for some adjustable strut tops for castor adjustment and full nolathane evo enhancement suspension bush kit.
Step 1 Roll the rear guards and use an adjustable pan hard rod around $180.00 seperate or comes in the nolathane kit which is a must on any lowered car. 19" - 20" Rims you start running into trouble with clearances into driveways, police, and tyre scrubbing the list goes on,never forget the amazing cost's off rubber if the tires go frying.
Just Remember 17" is the legal size on a VT Commodore that came out with 15" stockies 205's any larger the Insurance company doesn't want to know you as this size is not road legal. If you have an accident on 18" -20" your insurance is void = no cash.
It is not the Tire fitment shop's job to make you buy suspension parts, but could have informed you on all suspension upgrades if they had seen on their hoist or such notice safety issues.A quick word to get something done about it may have just saved the day... I guess they wanted their money and your sale.
If someone young comes into a shop with a bag full of money and wants 20" rims on a VT I am sure there is no risk assessment made at that point. A mention regarding suspension improvements may have been a good idea and notification to the customer that size rim is illegal shall prove them at fault.
Are you running wheel spaces in the VT? If so they are illegal also, just go buy your self a set of 17" 235 45 R 17 and be happy with one no worries on tire scrapping, police and issues on suspension components, the car will drive a million times better on 17" than 20" any day of the week, would have been better to sell your 20" to a car going into auto salon or something not a p plater daily driver who is asking for instant defect stickers and hassles with expensive tires...
Any tire shop should know 20" rims are not your usual taxi, family car profile so reasons for this size rim on a car must be know eg performance,why justify performance with safety ?,Any ways hope you sort it out and find some justice, a new steering rack etc.. wont be cheap and sad to hear a few buks lost on tyres and chrome /alloy. Do hope you find my post some what helpfull good luck!
TEIN ADJUSTABLE COIL OVER SUSPENSION: Part # QSJ32-GZAS2 - Increase Handling and fuel economy.
WEBSITE: Ford & Holden Kits
NOLATHANE ADJUSTABLE COIL OVER SUSPENSION Part # 44900
WEBSITE: http://nolathane.com.au/images/evolu..._coilovers.pdf
Nolathane Evolution Coilovers - These kits are the latest in height adjustable coil-over and feature replaceable cartridges,
65mm ID motor sport coils and include Nolathane bushes & bracketry for OE mounts & connections. The 75mm threaded body
Is anodized to provide a rustproof good-looking finish on the threaded section prior to powder coating the remainder of the body.
Correct camber settings have been incorporated into the design and each kit includes a C-spanner for quick height adjustment.
Nolathane has now incorporated Evolution Coilovers into the vehicle listings as well as the replacement inserts to service the
Evolution Coilovers.
676 WORDS BY THE WAY
Last edited by RVN 355; 19-01-2008 at 02:07 AM.
Cheers.
* RVN 355 *
smooth moderator
depending how low he has gone, he would need a camber kit regardless of wheel size, as its going to scrub the tyres out no matter what shape or size they are
how will he be fitting an adjustable panhard rod, last i saw all vt's were IRS, which doesnt use one
Step 1 Roll the rear guards and use an adjustable pan hard rod around $180.00 seperate or comes in the nolathane kit which is a must on any lowered car. 19" - 20" Rims you start running into trouble with clearances into driveways, police, and tyre scrubbing the list goes on,never forget the amazing cost's off rubber if the tires go frying.
how do 19 and 20" wheels have clearance issues with stuff? from what ive seen, they overall diameter is usually a bit bigger, which will raise the vehicle
in QUEENSLAND(where they live), there is no WHEEL diameter limit, heres is a copy and paste from the QUEENSLAND modification guide linked from aboveJust Remember 17" is the legal size on a VT Commodore that came out with 15" stockies 205's any larger the Insurance company doesn't want to know you as this size is not road legal. If you have an accident on 18" -20" your insurance is void = no cash.
notice it doesnt mention wheel size of nothing more than 2" over stock. as long as the rolling diameter doesnt exceed the above sizes over the maximum listed tyre on the tyre placard, they are fine.The rim diameter may be varied from the standard size
but the overall diameter of the tyre must not vary by
more than +15mm or -26mm.
It is not the Tire fitment shop's job to make you buy suspension parts, but could have informed you on all suspension upgrades if they had seen on their hoist or such notice safety issues.A quick word to get something done about it may have just saved the day... I guess they wanted their money and your sale.
If someone young comes into a shop with a bag full of money and wants 20" rims on a VT I am sure there is no risk assessment made at that point. A mention regarding suspension improvements may have been a good idea and notification to the customer that size rim is illegal shall prove them at fault.
HE wanted 19s, they talked him into 20s. when it comes to suspension, if you are a business fitting it, you should notify the customer of the dangers, especially being a tyre store, they would know bad camber would kill the tyres. a mention of a camber kit couldve netted them some more cash or a new set of tyres when the time came, now theyve lost the sale.
maybe he doesnt want 17" wheels, or i guess he wouldve bought them first!!
Are you running wheel spaces in the VT? If so they are illegal also, just go buy your self a set of 17" 235 45 R 17 and be happy with one no worries on tire scrapping, police and issues on suspension components, the car will drive a million times better on 17" than 20" any day of the week, would have been better to sell your 20" to a car going into auto salon or something not a p plater daily driver who is asking for instant defect stickers and hassles with expensive tires...
performance? LOL, you dont buy 20" wheels for performance, its all for looks. theres heaps of guys running 20" wheels on vt's without a problem.Any tire shop should know 20" rims are not your usual taxi, family car profile so reasons for this size rim on a car must be know eg performance,why justify performance with safety ?,Any ways hope you sort it out and find some justice, a new steering rack etc.. wont be cheap and sad to hear a few buks lost on tyres and chrome /alloy. Do hope you find my post some what helpfull good luck!
TEIN ADJUSTABLE COIL OVER SUSPENSION: Part # QSJ32-GZAS2 - Increase Handling and fuel economy.
WEBSITE: Ford & Holden Kits
NOLATHANE ADJUSTABLE COIL OVER SUSPENSION Part # 44900
WEBSITE: http://nolathane.com.au/images/evolu..._coilovers.pdf
Nolathane Evolution Coilovers - These kits are the latest in height adjustable coil-over and feature replaceable cartridges,
65mm ID motor sport coils and include Nolathane bushes & bracketry for OE mounts & connections. The 75mm threaded body
Is anodized to provide a rustproof good-looking finish on the threaded section prior to powder coating the remainder of the body.
Correct camber settings have been incorporated into the design and each kit includes a C-spanner for quick height adjustment.
Nolathane has now incorporated Evolution Coilovers into the vehicle listings as well as the replacement inserts to service the
Evolution Coilovers.
676 WORDS BY THE WAY
Quote Hakhawk.
depending how low he has gone, he would need a camber kit regardless of wheel size, as its going to scrub the tyres out no matter what shape or size they are
Thats crap 17" on a vt does'n't need a camber kit,my parents vt is fine done alot of kays on the tyres and they ride perfect.Would be good but to get one day
how will he be fitting an adjustable panhard rod, last i saw all vt's were IRS, which doesnt use one
My bad don't have an irs car,guess he would need adjustable rear swingarm bushes to suit a VT VX. These little suckers help you sort out your rear suspension geometry on your lowered car
how do 19 and 20" wheels have clearance issues with stuff? from what ive seen, they overall diameter is usually a bit bigger, which will raise the vehicle
well 19" on my vn have issues so thats one example.
in QUEENSLAND(where they live), there is no WHEEL diameter limit, heres is a copy and paste from the QUEENSLAND modification guide linked from above
notice it doesnt mention wheel size of nothing more than 2" over stock. as long as the rolling diameter doesnt exceed the above sizes over the maximum listed tyre on the tyre placard, they are fine.
HE wanted 19s, they talked him into 20s. when it comes to suspension, if you are a business fitting it, you should notify the customer of the dangers, especially being a tyre store, they would know bad camber would kill the tyres. a mention of a camber kit couldve netted them some more cash or a new set of tyres when the time came, now theyve lost the sale.
Well its his fault then isn't it for all the dramas as he chose them
maybe he doesnt want 17" wheels, or i guess he wouldve bought them first!!
Are Well guess he has learned now 20" are too big.
performance? LOL, you dont buy 20" wheels for performance, its all for looks. theres heaps of guys running 20" wheels on vt's without a problem.
20" for performance yeah right is that why hsv and fpv use them on there cars?
Cheers.
* RVN 355 *
Infidel Bear
Mini Putt 2 Champion!
Actually, almost every VT required a camber kit, it was part of a recall for holden to provide it due to scrubbing out of tyres, this also went on to VX Series 1. We had 2 VT II SS, one car they tyres scrubbed out after 12k, the other was fine. It was a known issue in the VT's.
All he needed was a camber kit which should always be fitted when lowering any IRS car. Any idiot with half a brain knows this. The fact this company didn't do this hold themselves liable.
You are talking about a car that is 10 years older...can you please stop comparing it to a VT?
He didn't choose them, he was talked into buying them obviously with the company saying everything will be fine.
So when are you going to offer anything of value into this thread?
If you think 20" inch wheels are for performance you are very much mistaken. They are for pose, nothing else. Most guys who will do track days will change wheels to suit. If 20's were so great for performance you would see F1, V8's, Indy etc all running huge wheels.
To the original poster, make sure you take photos with a film camera also and if possible use a time stamp with date, these photos hold much more value if you ever get to court with this.
The company has shown that they offered incorrect advice and did not provide a service that was safe. Any person with knowledge of IRS cars should know that when lowering a car with IRS you will need a camber kit to keep the tyres from scrubbing out.
I would contact consumer affairs in your state and put the story forward, it is also worthwhile contacting a professional suspension company to get advice and find out exactly what should have been done. Small things like this can go a long way to discrediting the company in question.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
- Theodor Seuss Geisel
Site Administrator
RVN one thing I will say, the issues with the 19's on your SS is because you wouldn't listen. I run VY Sigs on my SS, which use the VT onwards HSV offset which is a nightmare on a VN with no issues. Had you ran 235's you wouldn't of had any issues.
Selling FG G6E Turbo and buying a N/A Supra
You are welcome. As you can see the tyre size debate is a bit of a touchy subject, but glad we can be of help where we can.
To check the size of the tyre, look for a series of numbers on the side of the tyre. It will say something like 225/50 h16. The first number is the width, then the tyre wall height, the the letter is the speed rating followed by the rim size it fits on.
From memory the first two numbers are not an exact measurement but a ratio of the overal size. IE a 200 on a mini tyre would be smaller that a 225 on a large passenger car tyre. I'm not one hundred percent on this however and realistically going from a 16inch rim to a 18 inch rim wouldn't mean the tyre is that much wider.
Also the camber issue, with IRS commodores is pretty well known. I would hazard a guess to say the only person in a tyre store that wouldn't know this would have to be an apprentice that has only worked there for under a month! This is a tyre or suspensions stores bread an butter, upselling a camber kit or better suspension parts is how sales reps get promoted. It is unbelievable that they would not know about it let alone be negligent enough to let a car roll out with the tyre rubbing on a strut or guard!
You also sound like your not sure of the exact spot where the tyre failure occurred, was the tyre damaged to th point where you couldn't tell?
Not sure I agree with this. The champ cars run a pretty large rim size and the others subject to a rule stating the rim size etc. Plus a formula one type car runs a very very different suspension setup that apparently uses the tyre wall as part of the part of the suspension. The technology they use is in no way comparable to a road car, starting with the type of road they drive on.
I'm not putting myself up as a suspension expert by any means, but if you compare apples with apples, a high performance road car with a high performance road car you would have to look at something with a similar chassis, weight and suspension setup. Then you would look at how the tyre is setup to handle.
The flip side of all of this is the definition of performance. just as a ferrari couldn't follow a four wheel drive through a bumpy section of track at speed, the four wheel drive couldn't take a smooth flowing corner at the same speed as the ferrari.
Sorry for the slightly off topic rant.
Site Administrator
I can't think of any motorsport catergory that runs larger then an 18" rim.
Selling FG G6E Turbo and buying a N/A Supra
Fair enough but is that by design or all of the regulation in motorsports to slow them up? Also a 18 inch rim on smaller car is pretty big proportionally.
Adding to what I was saying above if someones definition of performance is going around a corner 2.1855kmh faster than his mate but driving down the road and losing all of his fillings, than good luck I'll keep my stock 16 inch rims.
Edit: looks like i was way off with how big champ car tyre is
taken from the champ car website.
I see mention of tire sizes but wonder if you could put that in a perspective so that I might compare them to the size of a street tire. Could you tell me tire size like 245/40/17?
Scott, Cincinnati
Dr Dyno
You won't find these tire sizes at your local Bridgestone dealer! The fronts are 10/25.8R15, while the rears are dependent on the type of track. For street and road circuits, both rear tires are 14.5/28R15. On short ovals, the left rear is a much smaller 14.5/26.7R15 and the right rear is a slightly smaller 14.5/27.3R15. On superspeedways, the left rear is a 14/26.8R15 while the right rear is a 14/27R15. Road and street courses do not use stagger (one rear tire larger than the other), while superspeedways require a bit of stagger and short ovals require more stagger. Stagger helps free the car up on ovals since the inside tires travel a shorter distance than the outside tires. Note that Champ Car tire sizes are measured in inches while most street tires are now marked in millimeters. A 14.5/28R15 Champ Car tire is equivalent to a 368/28R15 street tire. 14.5 inches or 368 millimeters is the tread width, 28 is the aspect ratio of the sidewall height to the width of the tire, and 15 is the wheel rim diameter.
So it looks like they are only 15 inch rims. but ona small car that seems big. Apparenly f1 use 13inch
Boy this is a touch subject isn't it! I would imagine that if the trye place did the suspension and tyres and they are not of legel specs (i can't imagine a vt being legal with "20"s on it unless it's a hsv), then they would have to get you to sign a stat dec that they hold no responsibility for problems caused by this. But all tyre shops should know what is legal and there for be responsible for selling the wheels to you. The only way I can see that you are liable and not them is if they only sold you the wheels and you put them on youself but if they put them on then I'm pretty sure they are 100% responsible.
Hope you still have reciepts and I would look further into this for sure.
Site Administrator
There is no onus on a company to modify a vehicle to comply with ADR's.
Selling FG G6E Turbo and buying a N/A Supra
There is an onus on a company to inform you that what they are doing is not complying with the ADR and therfore they must make you sign a stat dec stating that you know about the legality of the modification (non legality that is) and that you will bear the responsibilty of the ramafacations caused by it. By what I've read, they were not informed. As i said it is not illegal for them to sell you the wheels. Hell they can sell you "30" wheels if you want them but if they put them on the car then they are at fault. ADR's are there to protect people from making their cars dangerous to themselves and others by unroadworthy mods, not just to annoy you and me with mods to our cars.
PS, I was joking about "30" wheels for all the smart ones out there. But I wouldn't mind seeing a set though.
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