ETHANOL BLEND FUELS - article

[Sean880]

We are all told that its is safe to use the ethanol blend fuel in our later model commodores and that our cars will suffer no ill - effects.

Below is part of a brief article from the Tech Notes section of the Porsche Excellence Magazine - Feb 2010 issue which is currently on sale. This is a US publication and I thought this may be of interest because you do not see much on the subject of ethanol blend fuels.

There is also a "car industry" submission I came across I had not read before which is referenced below. (Few here would have seen this before I guess). This confirms my concerns about the E10 blend.

I should declare that I am not a fan of these fuels and I don't use E10 for a few reasons including the following. (I am also suspicious).

1. Ethanol is corrosive and I don't really know what the longer term consequences of using it would be. Your new car will be out of warranty by the time problems crop up which may be due in whole or part to ethanol so the manufacturer will not have to bear the cost of any problem. YOU WILL PAY.

2. I regard anything under 96 octane as poor quality and won't use it in my vehicle.
( I only run my vehicle on premium fuel by the way - usually the 98 octane).

3. Governments - as in NSW - are the ones requiring E10 ethanol blend fuels to be marketed. All those bumbling State bureaucrats and Politicians are the last people I would take any notice of. (Apologies to any public sector workers but you know what I mean). The oil companies and the car industry don't want to be in conflict with Governments and as long as their profits are not affected they will "go with the flow".

So here is the extract from the Porsche Excellence magazine-

TECH NOTES - "10% ETHANOL GASOLINE"

" No matter what our Politicians tell us any gasoline without ethanol is better for your car. There is no adapting to the downsides of ethanol. In gasoline, ethanol attracts water from the air. If moisture gets into the fuel tank and contaminates the gas it eventually ends up in the bottom of the tank. If a gasoline with alcohol or Gasohol is used, the alcohol will hold some of the water, loosen up the dirt, scale etc and carry this debris to the fuel injectors or carburetors, causing contamination in the fuel system.

If you have enough moisture in the tank you get a condition called phase separation where the alcohol combines with the water in the tank and settles in the bottom. Phase separation can cause the engine to run very poorly if the injector system or carburetors ingest a large dose of this water and alcohol mixture."

------------------------------------------------
My note. Unless you live and drive in the desert or semi desert regions exclusively you cannot avoid getting moisture in your fuel tank over time. A great many people live in mildly humid and very humid climates near the coast and some moisture build up in your fuel tank over time is inevitable.

------------------------------------------------------

Concerns about the use of E10 were provided by the "car industry" to the Victorian Government in a 2007 submission which can be read here..................................
http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/edi...ub_20_FCAI.pdf

In effect, what you have here is a statement from the car industry that using ethanol causes deterioration of components in the fuel system, among other issues. They also go on to discuss the phase separation issue.

There is enough basic information in this car industry submission to suggest to me that using E10 in your vehicle is not a great idea.

[VYMAD]

Good on you! (gives round of applause) You have just stated my exact concerns about using ethanol fuels plus a bit more that I was not aware of. I have never used it and will never use it, instead I use vortex 95. I pray that in the future when all unleaded contains ethanol they will have ethanol free premium. But I know that if they do that, then we'll see premium fuels rise in price dramatically.
I am of the opinion that car manufacturers say that ethanol fuel is fine for the engine because THEY HAVE TO, to meet government legislation. And Holden states in my manual that it should NEVER be filled with fuel which contains more than 10% eth. You're right though, by the time damage is done, the vehicles will be out of warranty, which is win/win for the car companies, too.

[VYMAD]

Surprising this thread hasn't had a few more replys, eh Sean 880?

[alien]

VYMAD, give it time. Some people are busy with work :P

Personally, i wouldn't use it, i know what happens in most vehicles and wouldn't touch it.

However, IF the engine is designed with ethanol in mind then yes it can be good. A friend has a nice sleeper (68 model Ford) which just got a newly engineered engine dropped in. It was designed with Ethanol in mind and leaves pretty much any vehicle eating it's dust. Puts out over 500HP at the wheels.

Bottom line is, if the engine is designed for it, then go for it, there's plenty of power you can get from using Ethanol too, but i wouldn't use it in cars not designed for it.

[one_and_only2004]

i generally just run 91 caltex unleaded - my car isn't a racecar and doesn't benefit from premium. After my ute was sitting for 6 months i drained the tank and filled it up with a tank of V power (which has an ethanol blend in there) to clean all the shit out, and it didn't explode...

after i whack the charger on i'll probably run a mixture of ethanol 95 and vortex 95 - which ever one is available really.

[alien]

i generally just run 91 caltex unleaded - my car isn't a racecar and doesn't benefit from premium. After my ute was sitting for 6 months i drained the tank and filled it up with a tank of V power (which has an ethanol blend in there) to clean all the shit out, and it didn't explode...

after i whack the charger on i'll probably run a mixture of ethanol 95 and vortex 95 - which ever one is available really.

Firstly, V Power doesn't contain Ethanol.... give me facts or GTFO. It is a different mix of 5 refinery stages. Then there is also cleaning agents. But there is no Ethanol... unless you goto a dodgy petrol station which adds it?

Unless.... you meant that your tank already had ethanol fuel in it?

[one_and_only2004]

Firstly, V Power doesn't contain Ethanol.... give me facts or GTFO. It is a different mix of 5 refinery stages. Then there is also cleaning agents. But there is no Ethanol... unless you goto a dodgy petrol station which adds it?

Unless.... you meant that your tank already had ethanol fuel in it?

Well sorry, i just thought when the V-power had written on the sticker

Contains 2% Ethanol

It contained ethanol. funny eh?

[alien]

Well sorry, i just thought when the V-power had written on the sticker

It contained ethanol. funny eh?

Fuel composition - AUSTRALIA No where on it's composition page does it state Ethanol.... sounds like someone's messing with you?

When i used to use Shell fuel there was also no Ethanol stickers on them.

Unless your talking about V Power Racing (which is a 100RON fuel) which takes V Power and adds 5% ethanol to reach the 100RON rating. This fuel is only available at the majorish Shell stations.

[one_and_only2004]

Fuel composition - AUSTRALIA No where on it's composition page does it state Ethanol.... sounds like someone's messing with you?

When i used to use Shell fuel there was also no Ethanol stickers on them.

Unless your talking about V Power Racing (which is a 100RON fuel) which takes V Power and adds 5% ethanol to reach the 100RON rating. This fuel is only available at the majorish Shell stations.

Actually that's the one i used! you'll have to forgive me, this was 12 months ago.

[alien]

Actually that's the one i used! you'll have to forgive me, this was 12 months ago.

Thats ok, last time i checked it was pulled from the market too

[danja]

I should declare that I am not a fan of these fuels and I don't use E10 for a few reasons including the following. (I am also suspicious).

1. Ethanol is corrosive and I don't really know what the longer term consequences of using it would be. Your new car will be out of warranty by the time problems crop up which may be due in whole or part to ethanol so the manufacturer will not have to bear the cost of any problem. YOU WILL PAY.

2. I regard anything under 96 octane as poor quality and won't use it in my vehicle.
( I only run my vehicle on premium fuel by the way - usually the 98 octane).

3. Governments - as in NSW - are the ones requiring E10 ethanol blend fuels to be marketed. All those bumbling State bureaucrats and Politicians are the last people I would take any notice of. (Apologies to any public sector workers but you know what I mean). The oil companies and the car industry don't want to be in conflict with Governments and as long as their profits are not affected they will "go with the flow".

Hooookay.. So you're a skeptic, which is fine, I consider myself a healthy skeptic too - but here's the rub, if you're not in possession of the right facts, you become no longer a skeptic, and instead a raving nutjob.

In response to your points:

1) Ethanol, like a great number of liquids, including petrol, is corrosive to certain substances. These substances are not used in the fuel systems of modern vehicles. That's the whole point of why it's ok to use in modern cars. GM have sold the Commodore in Brazil for years, where fuel is around 85% ethanol, yet they manage to run day-in-day-out without falling to bits. Wonder why that is?

2) Then you probably have no understanding of what the octane rating number actually means. It's got nothing to do with the "quality" of a fuel, it's got to do with it's resistance to detonation. If you don't have a car which actually requires the use of a higher octane fuel, you're just spending more money for something you're not actually using. Back onto ethanol, you realise it has an octane rating of 129 RON right?.. Going by your standards it's 31% better quality than premium unleaded

3) There are sound environmental and even economic reasons for sale of E10. It's not a conspiracy.

Some babble from some magazine about dirt

My note. Unless you live and drive in the desert or semi desert regions exclusively you cannot avoid getting moisture in your fuel tank over time. A great many people live in mildly humid and very humid climates near the coast and some moisture build up in your fuel tank over time is inevitable.

Like Brazil?!? That's about as tropical as they come! FFS there is nothing wrong with small amounts of water going into your engine. Heard of water injection? The Otto cycle? Steam carbon cleaning? Rain!??!!

As for loosening up dirt, do a test for me. Find a really dirty part on your car, then try and wash some of it with water, then try with petrol. Tell me which loosens dirt more. There's a reason why your car has a fuel filter by the way.

So, by all means continue using premium instead of E10, that's perfectly fine by me. What isn't fine however, is posting a pile of un-researched, misleading nonsense in about why you do it.

[alien]

1) Ethanol, like a great number of liquids, including petrol, is corrosive to certain substances. These substances are not used in the fuel systems of modern vehicles. That's the whole point of why it's ok to use in modern cars. GM have sold the Commodore in Brazil for years, where fuel is around 85% ethanol, yet they manage to run day-in-day-out without falling to bits. Wonder why that is?

I will accept that yes Brazil use 85% Ethanol, which actually changes to 75% in the Winter months because 85% becomes too difficult to cold start.

Also, the vehicles do run different cats to run such a high percentage. As a guide, once you hit 25% and over you need to start changing things like whole fuel system, exhaust and usually the intake manifold. With anything like 85% and more you'll want to also look at a cold start system (using unleaded to start the vehicle too). Unless the vehicles are designed specifically for those ethanol percentages you can run into very big problems, in Brazil because they've been using it for ages (since before i was born) vehicles are designed for the higher percentages.

[danja]

Also, the vehicles do run different cats to run such a high percentage. As a guide, once you hit 25% and over you need to start changing things like whole fuel system, exhaust and usually the intake manifold. With anything like 85% and more you'll want to also look at a cold start system (using unleaded to start the vehicle too). Unless the vehicles are designed specifically for those ethanol percentages you can run into very big problems, in Brazil because they've been using it for ages (since before i was born) vehicles are designed for the higher percentages.

This is more or less the point I'm trying to make, Brazilian cars are designed for running on neat ethanol, Australian cars are designed for running on E10.

I'm not suggesting anyone in Australia start running their car on neat ethanol, that probably would run you into trouble for all sorts of reasons (though I don't believe catalytic converters is one of the - the science just doesn't add up there) but E10 you've got no problem.

[immortality]

As for loosening up dirt, do a test for me. Find a really dirty part on your car, then try and wash some of it with water, then try with petrol. Tell me which loosens dirt more. There's a reason why your car has a fuel filter by the way.

fit the fuel filter in the engine bay for best results, right before the fuel rail is best if possible.

[alien]

This is more or less the point I'm trying to make, Brazilian cars are designed for running on neat ethanol, Australian cars are designed for running on E10.

I'm not suggesting anyone in Australia start running their car on neat ethanol, that probably would run you into trouble for all sorts of reasons (though I don't believe catalytic converters is one of the - the science just doesn't add up there) but E10 you've got no problem.

Firstly, it sounded by your post that GM were running vehicles in Brazil which weren't designed for E85 and they were running fine.... as in what they sell here or in america.

With the cats, legally to run on something like E85 they must be changed. The cats take longer to get to operating temperature because of the cooler ethanol and emit more pollution until they're at operating temperature. When they're at operating temperature there also isn't as much unburnt oxygen for the catalytic converters to perform their required chemical reactions.

As for E10, i still wouldn't touch it, but the ecotec and later should be fine to run it. The odler buicks, not too sure, my mum runs it occasionally in her VR, but i havn't pulled it apart to see if anything needs modifying. Generally only the carby engines though need modifying to run on E10.

[danja]

Firstly, it sounded by your post that GM were running vehicles in Brazil which weren't designed for E85 and they were running fine.... as in what they sell here or in america.

I'm sorry if you got that impression.

With the cats, legally to run on something like E85 they must be changed. The cats take longer to get to operating temperature because of the cooler ethanol and emit more pollution until they're at operating temperature. When they're at operating temperature there also isn't as much unburnt oxygen for the catalytic converters to perform their required chemical reactions.

The temperature thing is plausible, the oxygen thing I'm less convinced about because fundamentally we're just talking about hydrocarbon chains here, so if there is less O2 floating about, it means the reactions have been more complete and the catalytic converter simply has less to catalyse in the first place.

As for E10, i still wouldn't touch it, but the ecotec and later should be fine to run it. The odler buicks, not too sure, my mum runs it occasionally in her VR, but i havn't pulled it apart to see if anything needs modifying. Generally only the carby engines though need modifying to run on E10.

I don't use it either, because my car isn't tuned to use it so the net result would just be increased fuel consumption/reduced power, but if I were to use it I would have no fear about it melting my engine or anything like that.

[alien]

I don't use it either, because my car isn't tuned to use it so the net result would just be increased fuel consumption/reduced power, but if I were to use it I would have no fear about it melting my engine or anything like that.

It wont melt your engine.... may do other things though.

Also, it's probably a good time to bring up the Holden news.... i couldn't see it in the news section on JC, but Holden are bringing out their Flex Fuel vehicle this year. This means it will run on E85. However, the only station that i know of that sells E85 is Bosch Fueltown in Highett, ust near Southland Shopping Centre. Once these Flex Fuel vehicles hit the market though you can expect to see more though Sells for just under the normal cost of Unleaded though.

EDIT: There also appears to be one other in Victoria, being in Hoppers Crossing. But that's two in the whole state.... And there's about 5 in NSW.

[immortality]

if E85 was commercially available all over the country i'd be running it in some high CR or blown application for sure.

[wortus]

Isn't the NSW Government mandating that all petrolium fuel except premium must be 10% ethanol after a certain date?
I used to use E10 a lot in my old VN can't say I noticed any difference to performance or economy. I was told that using E10 for the first time can dislodge sediment in your tank and that may damage your fuel pump or block the filter, has something to do with it being a good solvent. One good thing is that water is soluable in ethanol so E10 will help get rid of any water in your tank without the water causing the problems it would with straight petrolium. My Dad used to put a cup of metho in his cars tank once in a while for that purpose.
I have a VY V6 now and haven't tried E10 in it yet. Anyone who has tried it in their VY what have you noticed in regard to power and economy?

[one_and_only2004]

My vy v6 seemed to run exactly the same - it uses within 10% of the same amount of normal 91 octane unleaded. It's a bit cheaper too.

[VNracer34G]

[QUOTE=Sean880;1430397]




So here is the extract from the Porsche Excellence magazine-

TECH NOTES - "10% ETHANOL GASOLINE"

" No matter what our Politicians tell us any gasoline without ethanol is better for your car. There is no adapting to the downsides of ethanol. In gasoline, ethanol attracts water from the air. If moisture gets into the fuel tank and contaminates the gas it eventually ends up in the bottom of the tank. If a gasoline with alcohol or Gasohol is used, the alcohol will hold some of the water, loosen up the dirt, scale etc and carry this debris to the fuel injectors or carburetors, causing contamination in the fuel system.

If you have enough moisture in the tank you get a condition called phase separation where the alcohol combines with the water in the tank and settles in the bottom. Phase separation can cause the engine to run very poorly if the injector system or carburetors ingest a large dose of this water and alcohol mixture."


------------------------------------------------
My note. Unless you live and drive in the desert or semi desert regions exclusively you cannot avoid getting moisture in your fuel tank over time. A great many people live in mildly humid and very humid climates near the coast and some moisture build up in your fuel tank over time is inevitable.

if the tanks kept full theres less air present to absorb moisture in the air plus theres less evaportion

VYMAD, give it time. Some people are busy with work :P

yup

Bottom line is, if the engine is designed for it, then go for it, there's plenty of power you can get from using Ethanol too, but i wouldn't use it in cars not designed for it.

Exactly - horses for courses


[QUOTE=alien;1431112]
Also, the vehicles do run different cats to run such a high percentage. As a guide, once you hit 25% and over you need to start changing things like whole fuel system, exhaust and usually the intake manifold. QUOTE]

WTF?? maybe injectors and a delcowizzid tune to suit

if E85 was commercially available all over the country i'd be running it in some high CR or blown application for sure.

oh yeah now we're talkin folks - higher octane, cooler burning = greater horsepower potential. Supposedly better for the environment and cheap -

[edals]

Just tossing this in here, One of my relies put E10 in his bike, 3rd tank required a strip down and clean. it f**Ked it lol. Was a new bike and was suppose to run ok on it. Just spend the extra few bucks, and give your car what it wants. Premium lol

[one_and_only2004]

Was this a carby bike by chance? E10 didn't go so well in my bike either - white plugs all the time.

[drift-it]

a mate of mine put e10 in his VS SS and two weeks later the rubber fuel lines were leaking not split or loose or cracking. maybe a coincidence maybe not. other then that i found E10 to be used alot quicker...but thats my experience with it.

[VYMAD]

Go for it! Use as much E10 as you all want to, after all it's each persons choice aint it?
I will never put that shit in my car's tank.