vy new engine needed
Evening all
I purchased VY a couple weeks ago. On way to work this morning noticed strange noise coming from engine. I took it straight back to dealer only short distance away. Their mechanic looked (kinda like a ratle worse hen accelerating) at it and said it did not sound good, he looked at it and said the engine has spun a bearing or two at the bottom and this apparently means a new engine! I know absolute nothing about cars so sorry if this doesnt make sense! The sales dude said since sold it so cheap to me not sure he can help! Well he will be fixing because as far as i can tell it is a warranty issue and he has too. I am just hoping for some info whether the problem sounds like it is not fixable. I think he said a reconditioned motor will cost $1295 plus freight plus labour! does this sound about right? From what I can find out from my research a reconditioned motor is the only way I should go, eg not a second hand motor. Any thoughts sugestions would be appreciated, I think I am going to have a fight on my hands!
what warranty did you get with the car they should fix it if you only bought it a couple weeks ago you usually get a 3 month dealer warranty when you buy a second hand car from dealer
they will 100% fix it under warranty its the law.
by being a dealer they have to give a warranty its part of their little license that lets you sell 2nd hand cars.
and no doubt they new about the problem before they sold it to you they were just hoping you wouldnt.
same thing happend to a mates vs wagon they never changed the oil and the pickup became clogged so he got a new motor
if you go there and they show you a good motor thats fine and say they are going to put it in.. when you get a chance discreetly mark something on it scratch a symbol into the metal etc. and then when they replace it check its the same motor.
Cheers for your replies; they are now going to replace it but have said they will put a second hand 105km engine it. They said if I want a reconditioned engine I would have to pay the difference between the second hand engine and the reconditioned engine and the extra labour costs in putting in a reco engine as opposed to a second hand engine. I think this sounds reasonable. They tell me the additional costs will be $500 - $600. I would really appreaciate any opinions of whether it would be worth my while spending the extra $500 - $600 to get a reconditioned engine or if I should just except the 105km second hand engine.
I look forward to any replies!
How much of a second hand engine are we talking about? For example does it include another starter motor, DFI module, coil packs etc or will all this come off your old engine? You need to make sure you know exactly how much of the engine is being replaced and get it in writing and also who's property the old one becomes.Originally Posted by simo79
I'd just get the second hand engine put in as it is low K's and these engines if looked after last a long long time and you will probably sel the car long before the engine is worn out. That said however I would insist on inspecting the replacement engine yourself before it goes in to make sure it has been looked after for example any corrosion on the alloy bits in contact with the coolant, oil leaks etc, condition of the oil, crusty deposits in the rocker covers etc.
When they do it also sort out beforehand who is responsible for any consumables, coolant and new oil etc. Insist they use new coolant, replace the oil and any other unservicable parts like radiator hoses at their cost and give ithe engine a full diagnostic, compression test etc and supply you with a copy of the results and a list of all the work done and parts replaced etc.
You would also be wise to have things like the engine mounts looked at to see if they have sagged and need to be replaced.
Also make sure it is a VY engine and not from an earlier model as there are small differences. And when it comes back finished make sure they have not damaged the car in any way things for example scratches or chips in the paint and check the edges of the bonnet as they will remove that and may not support it properly. I have seen bonnets off other cars rested on the back edge and it bends the corners or takes the paint off.
Last edited by wortus; 08-09-2010 at 04:00 PM.
make sure they can prove the engine has done the kms that they said if its already out of the car you wouldnt know what a bunch of dodgy pricks they were obviously hoping the engine lasted longer than the warranty if i was in this situation i would be chasing a new engine and there is no way i would be paying the extra 4 it if you know any lawyers i would ask them where u stand
I am a lawyer! they have to "carry out the repairs in a manner that conforms to accepted trade standards"
As I know absolutely nothing about cars (I find it difficult to check the oil!!) i have no idea what would conform to accepted trade standards.
I suspect that a second hand motor similar to that which was in the car "putting the parties back in the same position as they were before it broke down" would conform to accepted trade standards". The difficulty I have is having no mechanical knowledge is trying to determine if a second hand engine is as they describe and carrying out all the checks as suggested above, this is why I am tempted to pay the additional $500 to get a reconditioned engine to take away from them them any ability they may have to "pull one over me".
1. If you had a professional inspection carried out on the car before buying the problem would most probably have been identified and you would have been turned off buying it. Whichever way you go you are likely to have to part with more cash now.
(Wish I had a dollar for every time someone comes on the forum with a story about a problem with a used car soon after purchase when it could have very easily been identified with a decent inspection before hand by a competent mechanic).
2. If you go for a used motor you have no way of knowing for certain how many kms it has done unless you can check the kms of the vehicle it was removed from. You also have no way of knowing the condition of the motor before installation. The dealer can tell you anything now to get out of the deal as cheaply as possible. The used motor may run for a while but may be damaged and you will not necessarily know until it fails after months of use. Alternatively you may end up with a totally worn out engine that has done 200000+ kms . How are you going to verify kms and engine condition before it is installed in the car. Very difficult and, in any event, I would not trust a dealer that sold you a car with a dud engine that they hoped was going to run past the warranty period.
If you paid over $6000 for the car, I believe that under SA law you have a warranty from purchase for 5000km/3 months whichever comes first for cars with under 200,000 kms. (It's less for cars sold for $3000 - $6000, - - 3000km /2 months). So basically the dealer just needs to get a cheap used engine in the car that will run past the mandatory warranty period and then all the problems are yours. You will have no further "effective claim" on the dealer.
3. If it was my car (and it was otherwise a good vehicle I was going to keep for a few years) I would want a reconditioned engine provided it was from a reputable engine builder, came with a warranty from the engine supplier and was going to be installed by a competent qualified mechanic. I would also want items replaced while the engine is out like new engine mounts, a new or reco starter motor and other new ancillary items.
Basically I would not trust a used car dealer that sold you a dud car to have this done properly if he has control of the reco engine purchase and installation. Lots of corners will probably be cut to reduce his costs.
Like it or not probably the only way you can control the whole exercise yourself with a reconditioned engine installation is if you pay for the engine and all the work yourself. I would rather have an estimate of the dealers costs for this option, have that money paid out to me and then manage the engine purchase and all the installation work myself with a good mechanic.
Unfortunately, being a lawyer is not going to help you much to get a good job done through the used car dealer. You will only get that by selecting a good reputable tradesman to do the job and by selecting a reputable engine supplier.
Good luck with it.
It's always so much cheaper in the long run to have a competent mechanic inspect a car before you decide to purchase. Hopefully there are readers out there that understand the message.
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Tell them to fix it with no cost to you or tell them to stick it.
Whats to say your not going to have more issues in the not so distant future and these useless dealer's are evidently not going to co-operate.
In the end it is not your problem, DO NOT PAY A CENT TO THEM if its under warrenty.
personally, i'd pay the cash for a recon motor.. and find out where it's coming from..
i would then immediately take it to another mechanic to have a look around the rest of the car to spot any problems
Check out my ride!
Cheers for all your posts all very helpful.
sean88 - a particularly helpful post thank you. However I realise being a lawyer woud not help with mechanical advice hence me seeking others opinion on whether I should opt for the second hand motor or reconditioned motor. I would not have mentioned my occupation at all, I was only responding to a previous post.
It is not a bad dealer they have been around for 60 years in a relatively small town. never had any problems previously and never heard of any problems they could not survive if they did. I hink they have been caught out just like I have.
I know one of the mechanics there who has been away. He had checked the car over before I purchased he could not find anything wrong with it. It is the second one they have had the samething happen to in the last 2 weeks and never seen it before. The history of this car is it had all services done by the book but missed the last two. They think that when they cleaned out the old oil and put in the new good stuff it has messed things up and it has spun a bearing.
They are willing to put the second hand motor in, I think I just spoke to the wrong peson to begin with, as they believe it will be fine it comes with a 6 month warranty. I believe that is all they have to do. I have asked for a recon and said I will pay the difference of $600. I will wait for the mechanic who I know and trust to come back and put it in. I am in no real rush they have given me a late model BMW as a loan car until it is fixed.
Thanks
just keep the bmw and call it even i reakon
haha yeah exactly what i was thinking.
hey man i had a similar experience about a month ago... only thing was it was the radiator that went after i had took it back to them saying it was leaking coolant and that the engine was using a ton of oil... they said it was alright till about 2 months later the radiator cracked and the engine blew after it overheated (not the whole way though heat gauge got about 3/4 of the way up)... they put a second hand engine in after they told me they were putting a reconditioned engine in (they denied this but then they would) and charged me $1700 with a new radiator!!!! that was after a $1000 good will offer (stupid bullshit excuses)... they dropped a second hand motor in but told me nothing about it... a month later i had to take it back cause all the seals had gone... tried to then tell me that the motor was in good nick even though the valley seals, front and rear main seals, water pump seals and exhaust gasket all had to be replaced... had a meeting with them and after a massive arguement got $1500 back... all i can say mate is dont pay for nothing and make sure they put the best of everything back in... and if in doubt take it to a good mechanic when you get it back and get them to check it... dealers are the pits as i have discovered so take them to the cleaners for everything you can get!!!
Simo
You always have to get vehicles checked by a competent independent. You would never rely on the advice of a mechanic employed by, contracted by or otherwise associated with the vendor. (You would not buy a house on the basis of a building inspection carried out by the Sales Agent.)
Any competent independent mechanic worth his salt would have advised you strongly not to purchase a vehicle with such a bad service history. Missing the last 2 scheduled services most likely means:
- the car has been neglected generally (there are plenty of clueless people out there that consider that they can delete mechanical servicing to save money and you just found out what that means in practice)
- almost certainly the engine oil in the vehicle had not been changed for 30,000 kms + and probably over 2 years which, as you found out, is catastrophic and usually terminal for any engine.
Lubrication is critical to the life of any engine which is why Commodore enthusiasts here that value there cars have their engine oil and other fluids changed frequently (like oil changes every 5000 kms or less). Oil that is left in an engine that long with those kms of operation (probably over 30,0000kms) will be so contaminated and deteriorated that it simply ceases to lubricate properly. There will also be a lot of sludge build up in the engine. The result of poor lubrication is that critical engine components like bearings, piston rings etc wear substantially and fail. (Neglect of servicing may also be indicative of an owner that does not even bother to check oil and fluid levels frequently between services which can mean that the oil level in the sump can drop below a critical level.)
You mentioned :
"They think that when they cleaned out the old oil and put in the new good stuff it has messed things up and it has spun a bearing"
This is the greatest load of BS I have heard in some time. It is just indicative of some of the brain dead types in the motor trade that will try to tell you anything and think everyone is stupid like they are.
The problem was the old oil was so badly deteriorated (because it was not changed as required) that it failed to lubricate the bearings properly and the critical bearings simply failed - which they always will without adequate lubrication. ( It is also possible that some of the bearing failure could have been contributed to by allowing the oil level in the engine to drop too low at some stage - resulting in inadequate lubrication. But you will never know if this also occurred).
Improving lubrication by removing the old deteriorated oil from the system and adding fresh oil will never cause or contribute to bearing failure. The damage had been well and truly done by then. The new oil only improved lubrication.
I was recently showed some pictures by a Holden dealer of the internals of a V6 engine from a late model Commodore. It was a corporate car that the custodian had failed to present for some scheduled services and the engine oil had not been changed for about 25000 km or more. The engine internals were a mess and the repair bill was many thousands of dollars. I won't bore people with other stories just like this.
As mentioned before, any competent independent mechanic would have advised you against buying the car upon seeing that there was evidence that critical scheduled services had been missed on the car. I expect he would also have picked up on engine issues.
A good service history is critical to buying a used car and if you don't have it you might just as well take your chances with your cash at the CASINO. So if you are looking at a used car without evidence of a complete and adequate service history, NEVER buy it.
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Last edited by Sean880; 10-09-2010 at 05:22 PM.
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