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Timing chain marks

JarBro

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Hey guys, 3.6l alloytec. Just wondering if anyone knows how many rotations roughly before the stage 1 timing matches up ?

Seems like i am waiting for the sun/stars and moon all to aline.

Cheers
 

diysv6

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I am offering this material in good faith. I will not be responsible for any damage which occurs to engines etc.

I have gathered some articles about timing chain repairs over the time - in case I have to do mine. This is one such article. It may be useless - be warned.
I have attached a US Timing Chain info sheet - it may have no reference to the Australian sourced chain sets, as it refers to the front wheel drive US vehicles.
I am aware that a lot of Aussies are buying the chain sets from the USA. They suggest Stage 2 timing is 115 degrees?
Please be very aware that it is USA material.


View attachment Techlink Article Single Page.pdf
 
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JarBro

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This is pretty good Diysv6.

I have scored the holden copy of stage 1 and stage 2 diagrams but finding stage 1 is taking quite awhile considering I am turning the crank with a ratchet. I have had the secondary chain all correct and same with the primary gears all lined up but the primary chain links were all a few out. I shall keep rotating until the sun and stars aline.

Not sure if you remember but you helped with all the camshaft sensors and A57 A7 circuits. Spoke to someone and he said that its possible when i did the timing cover to begin with I had the battery off for an extended period of time which would have re set the parameters of my cam sensors and ECU back to a factory setting. Although my chains might not have reached the extreme limit for throwing up stretched timing chain codes resetting the ECU believes they aren't in a factory position hence the codes and possibly all my dramas. So this is the angle i am going for now.

Still working on the problem and when i fix it.... Beers for all !!!
 

diysv6

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This is pretty good Diysv6.

I have scored the holden copy of stage 1 and stage 2 diagrams but finding stage 1 is taking quite awhile considering I am turning the crank with a ratchet. I have had the secondary chain all correct and same with the primary gears all lined up but the primary chain links were all a few out. I shall keep rotating until the sun and stars aline.

Not sure if you remember but you helped with all the camshaft sensors and A57 A7 circuits. Spoke to someone and he said that its possible when i did the timing cover to begin with I had the battery off for an extended period of time which would have re set the parameters of my cam sensors and ECU back to a factory setting. Although my chains might not have reached the extreme limit for throwing up stretched timing chain codes resetting the ECU believes they aren't in a factory position hence the codes and possibly all my dramas. So this is the angle i am going for now.

Still working on the problem and when i fix it.... Beers for all !!!

Hi JarBro,

Yes, I was wondering about your ECU problems when I saw this entry. Hope you can sort out the Stage 1 and move to Stage 2 timing.

Upon reading about chain stretch, if the replacement is 3mm or more shorter than the original then your decision is correct one. Lay the original chain on a flat surface and push it together to get a long chain length. The lay the new chain on top of it. If it is approx. 3mm shorter, then replacement is a good decision.


The system seems to work on the crankshaft and idlers in correct location, in front of the even bank chain locations. It seems that once that is done the odd bank becomes easier to correctly locate. The camshaft locating templates have a great bearing on the outcome and alignment. Obviously, easier said than done?

Best of luck with the change over.
 
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diysv6

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I understand the alloytec is an "interference" motor, meaning that if a timing chain breaks, the valves will hit the pistons at TDC, causing lotsa damage.
Can see why you are progressing very carefully.

(My old OHC Honda bike - worn cam chain wore the teeth away on the gogs, or vice versa, and lunched the motor).
 

JarBro

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Righto, so I have worked through the timing chain issue and was very disappointed when i laid them side by side (new and old) that there was absolutely no difference in length. After talking to a lot of people about the timing chain set up and marks it was easier than what people make it out to be. Everything went back together and hand cranked fine.
Now i turn the key and the same old story, car wants to start but just doesn't.
So I tried something else. Reset the ECU by taking the neg terminal off for a minute AND unplugged the camshaft sensors. Turn the key and it fires up first time, rough as guts and will not idle, I have to keep pumping the pedal to keep it alive. I stop the car, try to start again and it wont unless i reset the ECU again. Very odd.
Tried to stick the cam sensors back on while running but it does not seem to make any difference. I have had the ECU checked out by injectronics and it came back good.

Any ideas on what path i could take with this information ?
 

diysv6

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Hi JarBro,

Bad luck with the starting problems.

Can you access a good scan tool?
One contributor said that SCA have a more expensive scanner which is better than the cheap one. The problem is that the Tech2 has all of the Holden software/sensor info etc. Some have said a mobile phone with an app and an OBD sender are a good investment for DTCs. (Don't know - I don't have a smart phone)
The third party ones have a "common" DTC list but not the Holden copyrighted DTC list.

Are the camshaft sensors etc the same part number? swappable?
Can you test fuel pump pressure?
Pull an ignition coil with a spark plug, well earthed, and see if you are getting a consistent spark whilst cranking?
Fuel injectors are a bit difficult to test in car - are they OK?
I think the MAF/IAT sensors can confuse the starting process. The MAF particularly. Are they clean and test OK for continuity?

Some thoughts but not necessarily applicable:
Is the reason for not idling the fact that the camshaft is "running" in the high RPM camshaft timing mode - full oil pressure applied?
Could the actuator have a dirty oil passage etc. ?
Was there any sludge build up at all?
Is the crankshaft position sensor working well? I think it talks to the camshafts re timing etc.

Again the wiring fault A7 and A57 could still be there. The A57 and A7 could be a common 12volt feed to the actuators.
 

diysv6

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Righto, so I have worked through the timing chain issue and was very disappointed when i laid them side by side (new and old) that there was absolutely no difference in length. After talking to a lot of people about the timing chain set up and marks it was easier than what people make it out to be. Everything went back together and hand cranked fine.
Now i turn the key and the same old story, car wants to start but just doesn't.
So I tried something else. Reset the ECU by taking the neg terminal off for a minute AND unplugged the camshaft sensors. Turn the key and it fires up first time, rough as guts and will not idle, I have to keep pumping the pedal to keep it alive. I stop the car, try to start again and it wont unless i reset the ECU again. Very odd.
Tried to stick the cam sensors back on while running but it does not seem to make any difference. I have had the ECU checked out by injectronics and it came back good.

Any ideas on what path i could take with this information ?

Hi JarBro,

I had a look around there is discussion about the cam phaser getting fouled with dirty engine oil etc.
The solution looks worth a go.

http://forums.justcommodores.com.au...5-vz-starting-problem-possible-ecu-issue.html
 

JarBro

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Had some really interesting progress tonight, Diysv6.

After giving up on the car for awhile I got talking to someone about it and informed him I had changed camshaft sensors, wiring loom, timing chain and had the ecu tested and couldn't work out the problem why the car would start once after i reset the ECU and run extremely rough then die and not start again.

Apparently from what I understand, when you disconnect the battery for an extended period of time (which is what happened when i replaced my timing cover seal) the ECU resets back to factory and basically does not know what it is doing (because my car is far from new).
Now when I started it tonight while it runs extremely rough you need to keep it running and let the ECU re-learn how to do its job again.
So what I did was trying to keep the revs as low as possible which was hard as it bounces all over the place I was about to sit around 3000-4000 rpm then after a few mintues as the ECU is working it out i could slowly get it to sit at 2000 rpm and after about 10mins of this I could reduce it to about 500-1000 rpm and finally i could take my foot off and it would idle. As the ECU was working out the parameters for idle I noticed it was sucking in air under the pleium chamber so it was a bit rough.
Will replace the gasket tomorrow and try it again.
Huge progress and am amazed that there is nothing on here to say anything about ECU's having to re learn parameters for idle.
process took about 15mins in total.

Report back tomorrow hopefully I can take it out on the road, will expect it to run like crap and use lots of fuel for a few days as it still works out what it should be doing.
 
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