Do factory lpg Alloytec motors have harder valve seats that non lpg Alloytecs?

[georgehifi]

Invite discussions about the rumor that factory lpg Alloytec motors have harder valve seats than non lpg Alloytec.
This is the rumor presumably started by GM but they won't put it in writing, can we have any GM employees or ex employees that may have some inside info on this, does the lpg seat have a different part no. to the non lpg if someone has a service/parts manual this would even help, maybe.
There are a lot of owners who want to convert, but are apprehensive about it because of the GM rumor that non lpg Alloytec motor will be damaged if run on lpg. If so it's a big expensive job with the quad cam 24 valve Alloytec to do a head recondition job.

Cheers George

[Kordorn]

Hi George.
Not sure on this one.
Started to see a few on factory installed LPG before I left but didn't ask the question.
Remember this however, before I left there was still no factory BUILT LPG engine options.
All installations of LPG were performed at the GMH plant in the HSVI department after the vehicle production line.
The Dealer fit LPG kits also became available just before I left in Janurary 2008.
With this in mind I would suggest that until Holden release an LPG dedicated engine option, all engines would be the same.
That's my theory anyway.

[georgehifi]

In case anyone is wondering why Kordorn would reply as a brand new member, within one minute of registering, I knew he was an ex GM employee and I invited his opinion and emailed him from another forum to give his opinion here. I hope others may follow and maybe we can get a conclusion to the extra hard seat rumor for LPG Alloytecs,
I myself cannot see two different types of seats, LPG was firmly established when the Alloytec was introduced as an after market add on, and it would have been in Holdens best interest to make it lpg proof for aftermarket fittment. But the $ rules and maybe not, and they may have wanted all the lpg fittment profits for themselves?
After my " cyclic knock " diff fiasco with them, they are capable of throwing up good smoke screens.

Cheers George

[VZ05]

I'm interested to wheter they have changed the valve seats. But apart for this I have a VZ '05 on the factory LPG with 160,000km's and haven't any dramas, it's still running really well with no different sounds from the motor to when I purchased the vehicle.
For anyone wondering about the performance my car actually runs better on LPG (on idle and through traffic) also per tank I roughly get 570km's which costs me around $40 to fill up which is a good savings on money.

[Doctor Bob]

the factory fitted LPG alloytec have different cylinder heads yes
from memory the valves & seats are different yes

its no big secret
george do you have any other conspiracy theorys concerning GM? ...

[georgehifi]

And where is this written by GM, or is it just what you say? please show us what GM said what the differences are in these different heads, as everything I have tried to find, nowhere has it been stated by GM, we've even had a ex GM employee say he can't say for sure. So proof is what's needed here. No conspiracy about it.
Myself and a few others would like to convert to lpg, but were not 100% sure our motors are up to it, even the head of Sprint gas said he couldn't tell me 100% for sure if there are differences and if so what they were, he just said to install the Flash Lube drip to help the seats stay cooler.
Now for me that's not good enough, especially if I'm to pay over $4000 for an lpg install, I want to be 100% confident in an lpg conversion hopefully without a Flash Lube system.

[pk2k78]

Hi Guys,

I sent a query email to Holden and received the following response:

Dear Mathew,

Thank you for your email.

We understand you are seeking advice on the installation of a secondary LPG fuel tank to your VZ SS Commodore. Factory fitted LPG to both previous and current vehicles are manufactured specifically to function reliably with this system.

As you are aware Holden’s New Vehicle Warranty covers all genuine Holden components from factory for a period of 3 years or 100,000km (whichever occurs first) where a Holden Retailer has identified a manufacturing defect.

Please be advised that Holden spend a considerable amount of time and research prior to the release of our products. As stated in the VZ Series Owner’s Handbook, if a vehicle has been modified with non-genuine components and altered from its original factory condition, and that has a detrimental affect to related parts, Holden’s New Vehicle Warranty will not apply.

Holden have no engineering data available in this area and we cannot say what effect a secondary tank will have on the vehicle.

Please note all Holden vehicles are manufactured to adhere to Australian Design Rules (ADR’s) and any modification may also breach that legislation.

Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to comment. Should you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact the Holden Customer Assistance on 1800 033 349.


Yours sincerely,

Carolynn Aldred
Holden Customer Assistance Centre

[georgehifi]

What a crock of **** not only did they not answer your question but they turned it completely into something else.
This confirms a bit what finding out, I have a good friend in Holden spares, I got him to look for replacement seats and their part no. for Alloytec motors to see if there is any difference or if there are two for the same motor and guess what, there are non stated at all for any Alloytec on the latest Holden parts cd catalogue, he is now enquiring for me back to GM hq why he cannot find them, as all previous motors Ecotec etc, they are there with part no's. Because he supplies the head recon shops in the area with seats for them to install into recon heads, and he said now he won't be able to supply them because the seats don't exist for Alloytec motors. He will get back to me with an answer for GM HQ

Cheers George

[pk2k78]

Yeah I agree, bull****.

The way I read it - "I have no idea what you are talking about, don't stuff around with your Holden or you're on your own, buy Holden genuine parts and you'll be right".

[88GreenVN]

I'm to pay over $4000 for an lpg install, I want to be 100% confident in an lpg conversion hopefully without a Flash Lube system.

Does the $4,000 spend include new heads?

4k is very expensive LPG coversion. Normally around $2,500. Or has inflation set in big time?

[poweredbycng]

Does the $4,000 spend include new heads?

Negative.

4k is very expensive LPG coversion. Normally around $2,500. Or has inflation set in big time?

$4,000 is actually quite cheap for an INJECTED LPG conversion. For $2,500, you would only get a mixer-ring or air-valve setup which is vastly inferior to the latest SVI and LPLI setups.

Regards,
Dave

[88GreenVN]

Negative.

$4,000 is actually quite cheap for an INJECTED LPG conversion. For $2,500, you would only get a mixer-ring or air-valve setup which is vastly inferior to the latest SVI and LPLI setups.

Regards,
Dave

Oh. cheap vs quality. I understand. I'm a gas convert nob! And will stay well clear of a gas convertion - dont do enough k's to warrant it.

Best to get a factory gas car then? - Keeping all warranty in good order.

[poweredbycng]

Oh. cheap vs quality. I understand. I'm a gas convert nob! And will stay well clear of a gas convertion - dont do enough k's to warrant it.

How many km is "not enough" according to you?

Best to get a factory gas car then? - Keeping all warranty in good order.

From what I have seen, all of the "factory" LPG offerings are poor - Ford's E-gas engine on the BA-BF and FG Falcon uses antiquated mixer-ring technology and Holden's system, while technologically better than Ford's, still leaves a lot to be desired, particularly in the areas of fuel consumption, underbonnet fitment, and fuel changeover switch placement. Aftermarket systems do have a lot to offer, especially if you decide to go SVI (and if you own a VZ, you wouldn't and shouldn't think otherwise).

Regards,
Dave

[88GreenVN]

How many km is "not enough" according to you?

6.6kms to work and back each day. + the odd trip to the city (32kms) So really very little work (but soo much fun can be has in 3.3kms)

VZ does all the family trips around town and will probably only do maybe 8-10 thousand ks a year. Only keep the car (VZ) for 2 years at the most and will replace it with Auction purchased car again.

[pk2k78]

Hi Dave,

It seems like you now a fair bit about these systems, is this purely from your own research or do you work in a related industry?

Also why did you choose the Sprint Gas system over all others?

Cheers Mat

[poweredbycng]

It seems like you now a fair bit about these systems, is this purely from your own research or do you work in a related industry?

Mainly through research, but knowing some mechanics that work in the industry really helps. I am, however, more interested in the development of CNG and LPG systems for heavy duty (i.e. diesel replacement) engines.

Also why did you choose the Sprint Gas system over all others?

The previous owner of the car (a friend of mine) converted it to LPG with advice from me. The chosen LPG specialist offered Prins VSI or OMVL Dream XXI-N injection kits, and OMVL was chosen because of problems with the Prins equipment at the time.

Regards,
Dave

[pk2k78]

I had a chat with a mechanic last night about Alloytecs on after market LPG. He said that he has seen a handful go through his workshop and they seem to run fine. He did however have one come in with a destroyed head. The car was used for weddings etc and had done a lot of kms. It had 300K on the clock when the heads went and the conversion was done at 100K. He couldn't remember what system it was.

On another note, I'm emailing Anthony @ A & M in Wantirna. Their systems sound good also (he recommends Tartarini). He has asked me not to post responses on the forum so I won't.

[pk2k78]

Any news guys? I think I'm going to take Dave's advice and just go the OMVL Dream system. Can I trust you Dave?

I also want to do a couple of mods before I fit LPG. Was going to fit extractors, exhaust and Cold Air intake. Do you think this would be OK? I guess I would need a custom dyno tune.

Cheers Mat

[georgehifi]

Just phoned my friend in Holden spares, he got no answer from GM, regarding the missing seat parts & part no.'s of the valve seats on the latest GM Alloytec parts CD.
And no answer if they are different for LPG Alloytec VS ULP Alloytec.
At least you got a reply pk2k78, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with what you asked, the answer was total bull s**t .
They won't even reply to their own employee, what does that tell you.

Cheers George

[poweredbycng]

Any news guys? I think I'm going to take Dave's advice and just go the OMVL Dream system. Can I trust you Dave?

Just make sure you ask your installer plenty of questions, specially regarding their tuning methods, before you go ahead. Having said that, the auto-calibrate feature of the OMVL software will take care of most of the hard work for the fitters. Just be sure to get the system retuned (most fitters will do this for free) after 1500km or so, or once the system has "run in".

Regards,
Dave

[pk2k78]

Ahhh! Just called APS Service Centre in Frankston (Heard very good things about them) who used to fit Sprint gas. They don't do them any more. They said they use Euro Gas now. They also said that Euro Gas is at least twice as good as the OMVL system.

Price is $3950 + $220 for a full dyno tune (he said its not necessary). Free Courtesy car. Should gain a few kws. $280 extra for a 3 year 100km engine Warranty.

What do you think Dave???

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

Just phoned my friend in Holden spares, he got no answer from GM, regarding the missing seat parts & part no.'s of the valve seats on the latest GM Alloytec parts CD.
And no answer if they are different for LPG Alloytec VS ULP Alloytec.
At least you got a reply pk2k78, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with what you asked, the answer was total bull s**t .
They won't even reply to their own employee, what does that tell you.

Cheers George

This employee is not a GMH employee, but rather the employee of the DP that holds the Holden franchise. He does not work for Holden. All dealerships are run independently and are only backed by GMH, not run or owned by them.

As to the answer of the valves being different, who cares? There is a lubrication system that can be used on non factory LPG cars, even if the heads and valves were the same, it would still void Holdens warranty, just like any other manufacturers. The LPG installer would have their own warranty on the system anyway, if it caused a failure of any parts, the LPG installer or the company that the parts come from would be liable.

[pk2k78]

Hey guys get this! Just spoke to APS again to ask about the Liquid injection system. Its not coming out till Jul/August, its supposed to be much better again. He offered to do me a good deal on a system if I donate my car as a guinea pig! What you think?

Cheers Mat

[Doctor Bob]

And where is this written by GM, or is it just what you say? please show us what GM said what the differences are in these different heads, as everything I have tried to find, nowhere has it been stated by GM, we've even had a ex GM employee say he can't say for sure. So proof is what's needed here. No conspiracy about it.
Myself and a few others would like to convert to lpg, but were not 100% sure our motors are up to it, even the head of Sprint gas said he couldn't tell me 100% for sure if there are differences and if so what they were, he just said to install the Flash Lube drip to help the seats stay cooler.
Now for me that's not good enough, especially if I'm to pay over $4000 for an lpg install, I want to be 100% confident in an lpg conversion hopefully without a Flash Lube system.

there is a specific engine for LPG, fitting gas to one not intended for it will cause premature cylinder head failure.

flashlube will probably help.

[poweredbycng]

Price is $3950 + $220 for a full dyno tune (he said its not necessary). Free Courtesy car. Should gain a few kws. $280 extra for a 3 year 100km engine Warranty.

Sounds pretty good to me. The Euro Gas system is the Landi Renzo Omegas SVI system from Italy. It isn't as popular as Tartarini or OMVL but I have only heard good things about it. I would invest in a full dyno tune and the engine warranty - for what little difference it makes to your hip pocket, it's really worth it in my opinion. Does the installation cost include a Flash Lube kit?

Regards,
Dave