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wod300

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Just curious Reap, if you had a business that was unproductive and you had to borrow 100 million from the bank to keep it going, in 12 months when things weren't looking so good still would you expect the bank to cough up another 100 million to keep doors open again? Do you think they would hand it over if you threatened to close up shop in 2 years anyway?

Well actually, if the bank has a few thousand customers with mortgages that were about to lose their jobs and default, then they would seriously consider it.

But we're talking about governments, and it's in their interest to support the industry.

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c2105026

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If holden stopped making the RWD cars i'd just switch over to the small sedans I had before. Corolla Mazda 3 etc. Indeed a manual Mazda 3 has similar straightline performance than my VX, with better handling. Not while my bum points towards the ground would I ever get an SUV. Crappy handling, too high off the ground, expensive, dull, boring, mechanically complicated, need I continue?
 

Reaper

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Don't we have enough protectionism in this country already? GM should move off shore and keep making the same cars for less, we would probably end up with better built cars anyway and cost a little less than we pay now.

Compared to most of the rest of the world and relative to every other auto making country govco assistance is one of the lowest in both actual $$$ contributed and per head of population/cars produced/any other measure you may choose to use.

We have paid something like 19 billion into the industry over the last decade and for what? We continue to hear how important the car manufacturing setup is, yet, there are 4 or 5 major countries in the top 10 economies that have no car manufacturing at all. It seems all the subsidies have done is create an inefficient industry that feels secure because of government grants and as such have never felt the need to change with the times for what people want (yeah yeah, I know you will give some smart arsed response regarding the inclusion of 30 different vehicles). I will ask, how much money has say Volvo/Scania received in handouts for their truck plant that employs 1000 people on site, what about freightliner & Kenworth? Fact is, when you create reliance through handouts, hands will keep sticking out.

No smart arsed response from me. Only facts. Anyway we digress. It's really a question of what is better for Aus as a whole. Save $500m a year (or whatever) but at what cost in return? That means additional social security and govco assistance helping people transition jobs, some of which will never get another job. These are not only direct jobs at GM (for example) but suppliers, right down the line 2 - 3 tiers down.

Some reading: (opens up as a power point doc)
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fcai.com.au%2Flibrary%2Fpublication%2F222388_pwc_fcai_draft_v7_-_master.pptx&ei=FfZ7UsXXB8egigfjuIHIBg&usg=AFQjCNG-tIsBV4pI16jOBY6bQNe2dQJixQ&sig2=oqNvuxN7SE4fgXf-MuRyZQ&bvm=bv.56146854,d.aGc


The real value of our automotive manufacturing industry : FCAI

The industry is no where near as important as people like yourself make out, so many workers have left the industry through choice or termination and yet have found new jobs through re-training. The government should be assisting those wanting to help themselves now through re-training in an industry or area that is not reliant on tax dollars.

The figures say otherwise.

I have seen comments made elsewhere about converting car factories to defence outlets in time of war lol...I don't think we are going to be producing F22's on a holden production line...I also doubt converting holdens into tanks will do too well!!

The world has moved on from those times. I couldn't imagine needing these production lines viable for national security reasons being a factor in keeping them or not.

Spend the money on getting new industries going through R & D, education etc, let the car industry die out, it really serves no purpose now.

Such as? - please be specific.

Just curious Reap, if you had a business that was unproductive and you had to borrow 100 million from the bank to keep it going, in 12 months when things weren't looking so good still would you expect the bank to cough up another 100 million to keep doors open again? Do you think they would hand it over if you threatened to close up shop in 2 years anyway?

Of course I wouldn't borrow $100million to keep the doors just to prop up an unprofitable business that had no prospects to move to profitability but I don't see your point. It has zero relevance to Holden's current situation.
 
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Skydrol

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The world economics is very complicated. Is not as simple as elevating import tariffs.

Is a give and take; the reason GM sells in China is because we used them to build cheap crap that we do not need.
A good example is taking the polluting manufacturing. Send it to China, they works for pennies on the dollar and they pollute their land.
If is done at home we have to deal with the tree hugers and all the eco politicians.

How do you guys think Coca Cola was selling behind the iron curtain? Simple, by allowing the sell of Stolichnaya Vodka and Caviar (just as an example).

Now; let us say for each Japanese car we raise the import tariff; everybody have to pay double for their stereos, playstations and all the electronics.

I live in the USA and the only thing that we make are Airplanes and some kind of Weapon. There is no other bargaining chip.

Search in Google for some called the
Network - Money Speech Network - Money speech - YouTube

I cannot say it any better, but Ned Beatty can.

We live in a world of Globalization and is driven by the Stock Holders. They do not care how many Utes are sold in Oz.
All they care is how much I am paying for the stock and how much money I get in return.

So making a global platform the company minimize cost, therefore profits are high.

People as usual goes in stages... They get angry and in a short time become complaisant.

Just like the USA in the 80s....
 

Skydrol

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it's in their interest to support the industry.

The Gov of any nation does not have the responsibility of supporting the market.

The market can take care of itself.

If Banks made a bad decisions in lending money and they go bust; is their problem not anybody to bail them out.

When the Gov intervenes in the Economy always ends up with a bunch of rules that nobody can follow, bureaucracy runs amok and the people that are supposed to help never get the help.

The world is a business and has been since the man crawled out of the slime.
Is not moved by ideologies.

Think for a minute. Why people have a job?
Money, and that is the way we all survive.
In that case the Gov does not support you, is the Business that hired you is supporting you.
What the Gov does is take a slice of the action; kind of a protection money, just to keep you safe.

How much politicians get paid? I bet they cannot afford what they have on that salary.
They get elected to manipulate the laws.
Why would you contribute to their campaign?
Simple, there is a monetary gain on it. Tax break, new contracts, fix a road so your car does not break, cheaper "something", etc...

Politics and Laws they all revolve around the World's Business System.

Holden is going pretty much the way Pontiac went.
Union Reps, Politicians, Officials they all have a piece of the action. They all have one goal and that is to make money.
The unions gave tons of money to the current administration and the payback was to bail them out?
That was a money grab scam.

GM was not bankrupt; nobody goes bankrupt overnight.
Was as simple as I pay you to win, you pay me back with interest and you keep a cut of that.


To make some of that money back and bring the Stocks higher they need to cut cost.
Make a Global Platform; just like in the 70s and Badge Engineer all of it.
Or make it much easier. Close Holden and call it GM Australia, like GM Korea (Daewoo).
Now they can call the shots from overseas.

All these problems, if think for a minute and give this question...
What is the Monetary Gain on what they do?
You will be surprised the answer that you are going to get.
 

Reaper

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The Gov of any nation does not have the responsibility of supporting the market.

The market can take care of itself.

If Banks made a bad decisions in lending money and they go bust; is their problem not anybody to bail them out.

When the Gov intervenes in the Economy always ends up with a bunch of rules that nobody can follow, bureaucracy runs amok and the people that are supposed to help never get the help.

The world is a business and has been since the man crawled out of the slime.
Is not moved by ideologies.

Think for a minute. Why people have a job?
Money, and that is the way we all survive.
In that case the Gov does not support you, is the Business that hired you is supporting you.
What the Gov does is take a slice of the action; kind of a protection money, just to keep you safe.

How much politicians get paid? I bet they cannot afford what they have on that salary.
They get elected to manipulate the laws.
Why would you contribute to their campaign?
Simple, there is a monetary gain on it. Tax break, new contracts, fix a road so your car does not break, cheaper "something", etc...

Politics and Laws they all revolve around the World's Business System.

Holden is going pretty much the way Pontiac went.
Union Reps, Politicians, Officials they all have a piece of the action. They all have one goal and that is to make money.
The unions gave tons of money to the current administration and the payback was to bail them out?
That was a money grab scam.

GM was not bankrupt; nobody goes bankrupt overnight.
Was as simple as I pay you to win, you pay me back with interest and you keep a cut of that.


To make some of that money back and bring the Stocks higher they need to cut cost.
Make a Global Platform; just like in the 70s and Badge Engineer all of it.
Or make it much easier. Close Holden and call it GM Australia, like GM Korea (Daewoo).
Now they can call the shots from overseas.

All these problems, if think for a minute and give this question...
What is the Monetary Gain on what they do?
You will be surprised the answer that you are going to get.

Yeah, cool story bro.

1. Make no mistake - GM was technically bankrupt well before the GFC and without the chapter 11 they went thru it would have been a train wreck for the US economy that would have made the GFC look like a walk in the park. Chrysler would have done similar to a lesser extent. The only reason Ford didn't go under is because a few years earlier they were in diabolic trouble and sold bonds (I think thats how they raised capital from memory) to save their arse. It was nothing more than luck they weren't in the same position.

2. Every car producing nation on earth is government supported in one form or another. That will either be from import tarrifs (or other artificial barriers for imports) or direct cash payments to the auto makers. There are various estimates around but the average estimate is that Australia kicks in around $200 per car produced every year ($18 per person in Australia). That is exceptionally low by world standards - USA is around $2900 by comparison. The Germans are at around $1300 per car however they have other "hidden" support such as a cash for clunkers scheme that only applies to replacing old cars with a German built vehicle.

I could go on but you are starting to get the idea. Governments all around the world support big (and small) business with all sorts of grants, tax breaks and other non direct hedges. To think that Australian business can stand on it's own without support is just naive and stupid and will leave us with no industry before long.

A little bit of an eye opener for you: Is supporting the car industry so expensive, compared to our heavily subsidised lives?
 
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Skydrol

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Is very interesting how GM went "Bankrupt" just right after the elections. Nobody gave signs about been in trouble; all the sudden just happen.

Bankrupt does not mean they went Bust.

All they do is place them in protection from creditors until they get back on their feet, just like any other business.

Here in the USA they are trying hard to throw the nation in bankruptcy.

Like Iron Lady said...
'Socialists are happy until they run out of other people's money.'

That was a pretty good link; thanks for sharing.

On the side about electric cars; let us take Tesla for example.

Elon Musk is a crook and he receives tons of US Dollars in subsidies and money underneath the table and still selling the car at a premium price.
The other Electric Car company, Fisker went bust. But they started with US Money handed by the current administration.
Why they went buts? Simple, was an outcry of why the US Gov is handing money to an European company.
Now he is pitching the idea for the Hyperloop that has been thought out decades ago. Pitching an old tech as his own.

They are trying to implement a high speed rail in the USA on the Tax Payers back.
Why is that?
Simple, the Cargo Rail Companies wants new Rails and/or fix what they have and they are so cheap they do not want to foot the bill.

We have lots of Wind Electric Generators. I do not know in Oz but take a good look at them, most of the time are stopped, sitting idle.
No power is generated. Why they are there? Simple, the Gov gave tons of cash to make them and the company has a Natural Gas Powerplant as back up.
That runs 24/7 producing power.

Now we are all to the neck with Natural Gas conflicts. China Vs Japan, Russia's Gazprom Vs EU Companies, Africa and the Chinese tapping resources.


I like the story in the link that you gave me about the Victoria and Queensland dairy farmers. That was a typical move to favor a group for money.
 
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RACEY

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Enjoyable read,so sad but true,i wont give up on my commodore,just keep it up to date,mod's are good,she'll stay around for another 25 years.
To many jap craps for short term use/and cheap..costs overrides all..short term fixes...desposable cars for the future at the 3rd of the costs,dont fix/replace.
 

Skydrol

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I have a VE, one of those Pontiac G8s.

That was the best Lutz did with the Commodore; found a performance brand to sell it.

Holden is pretty much the Pontiac in the USA.

Chevy is like the Opel in Europe; just a cheap brand of car.

Sure they have some odd balls like the Camaro and Corvette, but that is all.

Pontiac in another hand has been know to be the bad boys, the performance guys.
The ones that does not follow rules and has a Performance mind.

Taking a Monaro and badge it as GTO, and taking the VE and call it G8 (Grand Prix 8th Gen) is a huge compliment.
The Statesman could be the Bonneville but never made it.
Lutz was working on the next GTO and was supposed to be the Holden Coupe 60

In the USA more Pontiac out sold Buick but, was a reason for keeping Buick.
Because they sell Buick in China, Pontiac only market was in the USA.

So having the VF as a Chevy is like a step-down or let us say, cheaping it.

The VE to be quiet honest looks better and with Pontiac looks is more menacing.
The VF looks like an another Chevy and more like a FWD Malibu.
Would not be surprised that GM handed some cash and told the Holden Designers to make it look more like a Chevy.
The only difference that I know beside the Steering Wheel location are the badges.
On the VE and Pontiac at least it had a different front bumper.
So I can say, the HSV looks more in the way a Pontiac should be (that probably could be the next-gen G8)

The low volume is just to have numbers enough to race it on NASCAR but I have not seen people really talking about it.
Still people that has no clue what a Chevy SS is or a Holden VF.
Most people think when they see it that is another FWD Impala.

Chevy does not sticks out like Pontiac did.

Most of the time people think that I drive a BMW until they get a closer look.
 
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Skydrol

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I don't know the history of olds but Pontiac died due to decades of own goals and stupid decisions.

The Government and GM itself killed them off.

Here is what happen on a nutshell.

Oldsmobile and Pontiac were GM Divisions. GM we can say, supplied a frame or body. Each Division added their very own special tweaks.

For example; Oldsmobile was the first one that developed the OHV engine. Buick had the 215cu in Engine that was an all aluminium and the first US engine to have 1 HP per Cu In and was sold to British Leeland and used on Range Rovers for decades. Pontiac had an Inline 6 with OHC. Chevy had its own too; the most common was the 350 Cu In Motor. Also, Pontiac had a Tempest in the early 60s with a rear mounted Transmission (was used as a technicality on the movie My Cousin Vinny). Even Oldsmobile used Turbo Engines in the early 60s. Pontiac modified the chassis to have some called Wide Track to be more stable at high speeds and cornering. Oldsmobile Quad 4 engine with the Aerotech in the 80s broke speed records.

I could continue on but there is a lot to be said...

Lets go to the 70s...

The Gov got involved, EPA said that need to pollute less. Insurance companies lobbied for the 5 MPH bumpers. Oil Embargo and CAFE that dictates how many miles per gallon on an average a company will consume (21 MPG). That is why the national speed went to 55 PMH. Cars became more complex, heavier and restricted. In order to save cost and increase profit. GM stopped the Divisions ability to build and modify their cars and opted for using universal parts. That is what led to Badge Engineering. All it was a trim and badge changes. Just like Holden VF and Chevy SS; a badge change (how cheap is that?). It was a point in the early 80s that all GM cars they looked like clones, was stupid!

That is how Pontiac image and Oldsmobile eroded.

Lutz said that Pontiac took decades to build an image and GM destroyed in few years.
He wanted to bring the Division back to its former glory.

Oldsmobile was like the Techie Division, they made a lot of experimental powerplants and powertrains.

The OHV engine and the Hydramatic transmission were Oldsmobile designs.

The GTO was John Z DeLorean bad boy image and the very first Muscle Car.
Was nothing but the smallest car (Tempest) with the biggest engine (Catalina) and painted in red.

But taking Holden and badge it as a Pontiac was perhaps the best it could happen.
Some people did not liked the idea of the Monaro called GTO because was Aussie, not an USA car.
However, the car is pretty well sought around here. The G8 is holding its value pretty well.
Perhaps is the only car in the GM line up that has the highest resale value (used a GT 6.0L goes for about US $21,000).
 
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