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28 days until TUNE (advice on E85 and supporting mods please)

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by dsuth77, Sep 1, 2014.

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  1. duaned

    duaned Active Member

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    287rwkw my arse! They must have fed that dyno some anti-depressants as that is a high reading!
     
  2. Grennan

    Grennan Slayer of Stupid Threads

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    Well todays Wednesday.

    Was Luis in?
     
  3. dsuth77

    dsuth77 Member

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    I agree. I posted the examples (with a mainline dyno) to show that on forums there are so many biased conflicting opinions and very few facts. Same goes for the dozen or so reputable tuners, I have spoken to at length on the phone and in person. At the end of the day you have to trust someone. I understand dyno printouts can be manipulated thats why I posted mine (I smelt a rat).

    I spoke to Frank at APS he is clearing the workshop on fri afternoon for me and this is what he said : engine light is likely to be the cats not lighting up.
    the aggressiveness of the auto is due to so much extra torque. I told him I wasn't happy ( I did'nt mention the way It drives I'd prefer to do that in person)

    I am also booked in to the local tuner on fri morning to: check the engine light and if possible , get him to look at the tune, and run it up on the dyno (for comparison purposes when I question the torque figures with APS) and to get his opinion on the feel of the car

    I plan on having the intake changed to the OTR as a minimum
     
  4. 07GTS

    07GTS Well-Known Member

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    u will probably find looking at dyno sheets from any dyno what ever it reads if u forget about the end figure and look at the actual gain most cars will be pretty close, a higher reading dyno will start higher and end higher and so forth with a lower reading dyno will start lower and end lower but the gain will be the bout the same, to me the dyno is there to show me im putting my money in the right spot and its making more power/torque than it was and thats it...
     
  5. dsuth77

    dsuth77 Member

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    thats my understanding also
     
  6. Grennan

    Grennan Slayer of Stupid Threads

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    Yes and no.

    Dynos can be manipulated to exaggerate the gains.

    Strapped the car tight on the base run and loosening it on the final power run to exagerate the power gain is quite easy and widespread. On Dyno Dymanics dynos, the temperate also plays a huge part and can greatly affect the outcome. There are several ways that the tuner can either bullshit the dyno or simply make a mistake which will have an end effect on the power reading.

    This makes the end user feel better for laying down X Thousand dollars. But also, when you show your mates, post on forums etc, the figure looks great for X workshop. Lets take this thread for example. A 250rwkw figure is nowhere near as impressive as a 280rwkw graph.

    Its widespread with workshops that offer packages because theyre aimed at meeting a certain power range. If the car doesnt make X power for the package, the customer asks what the hell.

    Dynos are great for a few things, in particular the tuning process. Because you get a good look at the Air to Fuel ratios over the entire RPM range, this helps with getting a good mix between economy and supply to the engine. You also get to see if the power curve is nice and smooth.

    The dyno figure is only as good and as honest as your tuner.

    Frankly, the lower the figure the more I tend to trust a workshop. Going to my previous point about the 250rwkw v 280rwkw graphs. Yes, the 250rwkw shop could just be ****. But in the case of bolt on tuning, there is absolutely nothing secret squirrel about it. Its a simple as loading a generic tune and tweaking based on AFRs. There is very little in the way of trial and error. They are done a million times a day and if you #### it up you shouldnt be in charge of a roll of sticky tape. So im more inclined to believe that the 250rwkw workshops a) has a good enough reputation for their work that they dont need to prove their figures b) is not just going to tell you what you want to hear c) can be trusted.

    Now with that being said. Im not saying all workshops that has a 310 package for example is manipulating their dynos so that the cars come out with 310, but many of them do and if youre basing everything of a power figure, youre going to learn a very expensive lesson sooner or later.
     
  7. 07GTS

    07GTS Well-Known Member

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    i have hurd alot say that dyno dynamics always read high which to me comes down to the tuner i have only ever been on a dyno dynamics and have always read low compared to others with same mods, but also what my tuner has is a weather station that updates live to the dyno every 3 seconds which he had to get it because durin a day of tuning the weather would mess with the results and was harder to tune so once installed it made tuning more consistent and reliable that u are making better changes, it is easy to mess with results tho so u must trust the tuner...
     
  8. Grennan

    Grennan Slayer of Stupid Threads

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    A Mainline Dyno has that weather capability in it by default.

    A Dyno Dynamics dyno is more susceptible to manipulation and or error.

    Thats not to say it cannot be done on a Mainline, its just not as easy.

    Every dyno is different, every tuner is different.

    Thats what I continually say, trust the power figure as much as you trust Rolf Harris in a day care center. Go by how the car feels and the MPH on the track.
     
  9. AirStrike

    AirStrike Administrator Staff Member

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    Dyno is a dyno, they can all be played with. I think sometimes people like being run up on a mainline so they can say 'oooo but mainline reads lower' when someone mentions figures.

    This is why I like MPH, doesn't lie and can't be fudged.
     
  10. torana355

    torana355 Member

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    I think a 1/4 mile run is in order for the OP, lets see what kind of MPH its getting. As others have said MPH doesn't lie. My car got a fairly low reading on the CHE dyno in comparison to dynos in other workshops but i trust that im actually making that power. I would rather have a low reading dyno sheet and a 12 sec quarter mile time then a happy dyno figure and running mid 13's.
     
  11. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    I'd rather a car that accelerates hard under all conditions not just 12 sec WOT hair-on-fire 0-400m in a straight line. My challenge is more like canyon runs in the dark pissing down rain across an alpine range (500+ metres) with four bikes on the carrier, a boot full of booze and luggage and four adults. You know, long weekend camping trip!
    Each to their own, upgrades are horses for courses, the notion that an ET is the ultimate yardstick for performance is not real life at all, at least not mine.
    By any method of calculation my car is ~12s (12.0-12.99), but more impressive point to point, 1200k /wk, year in / year out, clocked up half distance to the moon.

    EDIT: This sorta comes across as a pose, just sayin' reliable tune is better than drag spec. overall, and there's more demands IRL than peak engine kw at the lights on a flat by yourself with no load.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  12. AirStrike

    AirStrike Administrator Staff Member

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    Pirate I said MPH, not ET. Given the weight and MPH of a car you can accurately determine the power of the vehicle.
     
  13. arronm

    arronm Active Member

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    Well my full exhaust and OTR has been fitted to me VF and its booked for a tune next week. Is currently tuned on P100 the same as my F6, but as they are phasing out that fuel I am going to tune on 98. So VF threw an engine light and is pinging on light load, so I have parked it up until its tuned. Had to drive the F6. Now dont get me wrong I luv driving the VF, its a fantastic car and I do like the burble of the V8. BUT I can see why I am addicted to the turbo. Couldnt wipe the smile off my face today or the rubber off the road. But I suppose its unfair to compare a 350HP car to a 550HP car.

    Anyrate really looking forward to my tune and looking to see some more gains.
     
  14. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    Nah, United are not phasing out P100!? Maybe in sand land, but here over east in the green paddocks it's is simply 98 plus 10% ethanol, too easy.
    About your other car, it makes as much atw as your new VF makes at the fly, not much of a gap to fill. A simple way to match that is to raise comp to 13:1, run on flex fuel like it's made for.
    Speak to an engine builder, I found it is cheaper to fundamentally increase this engine's everyday cylinder pressure and run exclusively on ethanol than typical retail spend on breathing enhancements like OTR, exhaust and camshaft frigging around with 98's fickle thermodynamics.
    In our greener world here (east coast) I've managed three years almost entirely flex, if sandgropers were not so attached to all things borne out of the ground then there would be more e85 and you could consider high comp ethanol on your VF for the price of overhauling your heads by a professional.
    Then you can compare the benefit of being blown in a Ford six to a head job in a Holden V8 :yarr:
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  15. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    Thanks for that, can you calculate how many kilowatts my car would have if the MPH was 115.9?
     
  16. AirStrike

    AirStrike Administrator Staff Member

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    What weight was the run at? Car + driver + fuel, etc
     
  17. Davison

    Davison Active Member

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    They certainly are, been replaced by 98 throughout Sydney.
     
  18. arronm

    arronm Active Member

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    You maths is terrible. My VF is 260KW at the Flywheel, thats 349HP. Since a tune the VF now has 335HP at the tyres. My F6 makes 550HP at the tyres. With 22% loss thats 671 at the flywheel. Thats nearly double a stock VF 6L. Back to school for you....


    And they are phasing out P100. The ford forum had a link to united facebook and they have officially announced it.

    I think you should run through your facts before posting. And your maths....
     
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  19. shaness8

    shaness8 Member

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    200HP not much of a gap to fill, raised comp and head work won't even get close.
     
  20. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    Relaxxx. F6 is 280ish atw, SS is 270 at the fly.
     
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