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Advanced Driver Training - Yes or No?

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Immortality

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But at the end of the day... doesn't matter how good you are on the roads... because there is alwasy someone who doesn't know wtf they are doing that can wipe you out...

Everyone on the roads needs to be upto a certain level of competance... at the moment you never know...

thats what i fear the most.
 

Jesterarts

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Well that's it... I've been in 2 accidents... and each time it was the other drivers judgement or rather lack of it that caused it...

Once I t-boned a car that pulled out from a side street and the other time, just last year, I had a chick in a FWD just change lanes onto me... I was lucky i had a turning lane to escape into after bouncing off her otherwise it would have been a tree, head on at 80kmph.

Also lucky my car is actually capable of pulling up fairly quickly.

And some of the things I see on the roads... people seem to have MAJOR issues with round abouts and merging...

Had some idiot stop dead at the end of a merging lane onto a freeway... lucky the freeway was clear of traffic and I just merged into a lane to avoid what would have been a messy crash...

One minute the car in front is a distance away... accelerating and almost at the merge point... I turn my head to check to find a spot for me to slot in and by the time i look back ahead there is a car stopped dead infront of me... no way in hell i would have pulled up... by the time my foot would have reached the brake I would have been in their back seat making my way into the front seat.

And round abouts... they are a brilliant thing... you just have to worry about one thing... cars to your right... otherwise you go... its bloody simple... and the number of times I've had people pull out infront of me or stop IN the round about and try to give way to car on their LEFT??? WHY??? you're not being a good or safe driver... just because you think you're being a saint letting people on the left in for no reason doesn't mean you're a good driver... because all of a sudden you're causing a un anticipated hazard on the road... an un-expected condition...

Basically like stopping at a green light... the people behind you know know wtf you are doing and the people you are trying to let in don't know wtf you are doing...

This is how collisions happen... when people do un-expected things that others on the road can't make sense of.
 

minux

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^^^Since when do you give way to your right on round-a-bouts?
 

commsirac

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do you have any data to back up these claims

Sure, but have you got any to back up yours, of course not....because there isnt any.

But heh, that doesnt stop all these people who have done the courses telling us it will make the world safer, who are they to stop a few facts getting in the way. Unfortunately the evidence says its just as effective as Brockie's polariser.

have a look at:
DRIVER TRAINING REVIEW
APPENDIX M
COVER SHEET
Defensive driving schools, Driving School, Driver safety program, CDTA, Melbourne, Australia, even though it is a private organization, it does speak looking at the facts
VicRoads Review of Driver Training Programs 7
A review of the literature found that various road safety authorities and researchers have been unable to find evidence of a link between car driving skills and road trauma. Driving skill deficiencies have been found relevant in less than 5% of crashes.
Post-licence driver training courses may be divided into three categories. These are:
• Defensive driving courses which aim to help any involved driver or rider avoid getting into critical situations;
• Advanced driving courses which aim to help any involved driver or rider cope with critical situations; and
• Driver improvement programs which specifically target accident or violation involved drivers.
Reviews of evaluation studies have found no evidence that either advanced or defensive driving courses reduce the accident involvement of those who attend.
Even when targeted at drivers over-involved in accidents no significant reductions in accident involvement results. Such training has occasionally been found to reduce traffic offence involvement but there is no reliable evidence that this translates into accident reductions or even persists in the long term.
It may be concluded that the road safety value of these particular programs is questionable.
Victorian studies of both novice and advanced driving courses also found no evidence of accident reductions.
A study of a mixed defensive/ advanced driver training course for novice drivers in Adelaide found no accident reduction benefits. This is consistent with evaluations of driver training/ education programs in New Zealand. Indeed, it has been found that following voluntary attendance at a skill-oriented, advanced driver training course in Sydney those trained recorded increases in traffic convictions, particularly for speeding. 8 This is a disturbing though not unexpected finding and is consistent with the findings of another Australian study and the findings of the largest driver training study ever undertaken (De Kalb County, USA).
New South Wales Review of Californian Driver Improvement Program for
 

thestig

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Sometimes the words just fail me....

Sure, but have you got any to back up yours, of course not....because there isnt any.

<snip>

Just to make sure that we are all on the same page here;

1. You are quoting a study done in 1984 in the US of high school pre-liscense training. One that concluded, amongst other things, high skill levels contribute to accidents because the study showed that racing drivers have a higher incidence of collision.

It may be a little presumptuous of me, but what the hell! I would like to point out that 'racing drivers' have a higher crash rate on public roads
because they are by definition risk takers.


2. A metastudy (study of many studies, including the US study from 1984) performed in Australia and presented in 1997 that concluded that driver training programs that address skills only are in fact counteractive if attitude and behavior are not addressed.

Fine, no arguments here, as I alluded to in a previous post and will clarify here, attitude adjustment is a nessecary part of any form of driver training. The training I underwent at Murcotts was not a skills only course. It addressed many areas such as skill, cognition, attitude and behavior.

3. Your final link is infact a link to a driver training program provider that states that studies have shown that attitude and behavior are mandatory elements to be addressed during effective driver training.

I will relate this back to point 2.

May I suggest that you vet your sources a little more comprehensively before presenting them as 'evidence'. They are, outdated, suffer major flaws regarding their methodology, or are in fact contrary to your view point that modern driver training courses are ineffective.

As far as evidence for their effectiveness, why do insurance companies continue to offer them for free or at discounted rates, with thier policies? Why do they take percentages off their premiums if you have successfully completed an acredited course??

Because they're good guys?? Do they want to be your friend??

No! It's because they are the ones with the up to date facts at their fingertips. Their analysts know that they have reduced payout rates as a result of such courses!



L8r
 

commsirac

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Just to make sure that we are all on the same page here;

1. You are quoting a study done in 1984 in the US of high school pre-liscense training.

Lets be sure everyone knows that you dont have one bit of evidence to support your "theory"

I do, a whole internet full of sources that I could fill up pages of links, going to call them all lies, out of date, flawed, geez you found something that related to 1984, geez, they did studies back in the 50s that proved seatbelts would be an effective safety device.....that must be wrong too? Somethings just dont change a lot, cretons at the wheels of car and ex racing drivers and self proclaimed driving xspurts desperately trying to make a buck have been running advanced driving courses have been with us for years.

In the absence of data from last year your theory is somehow correct?, you are in dreamland.

Of course you want to believe your money on such a course has been wellspent, if you enjoyed it, it has, but please dont foist it on anyone else for anything but enjoyment value.

If I had all day I could perhaps find the names of the australian companies that have withdrawn from adt, because it increases their costs.

As for insurance companies that reduce premiums(really which ones)....if its true, all it is proof of is that the insurance companies find the ones that pay premiums to them and bother to attend such courses may reduce claims, that's all, that is not proof that the general populace will benefit. do they really offer a premium that is in the end cheaper than their competitors who offer no such discount, I did get quotes from one, I cant remember it was so long ago after I completed one of the adt courses(no I didnt pay, it was a freebe).
 

danja

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As for insurance companies that reduce premiums(really which ones)....if its true, all it is proof of is that the insurance companies find the ones that pay premiums to them and bother to attend such courses may reduce claims, that's all, that is not proof that the general populace will benefit. do they really offer a premium that is in the end cheaper than their competitors who offer no such discount, I did get quotes from one, I cant remember it was so long ago after I completed one of the adt courses(no I didnt pay, it was a freebe).

AAMI offer an additional 10% off their premiums (on top of regular NCDs) to under-25's who attended an advanced driving course they offered for free. AAMI are already one of the cheaper insurers, so to say that they compensate by padding out their quotes doesn't hold water.
http://www.aami.com.au/customer-service/skilled-drivers/drivers-course.aspx

Can I ask what topics were covered in the course you attended?
 

minux

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As for insurance companies that reduce premiums(really which ones)....if its true, all it is proof of is that the insurance companies find the ones that pay premiums to them and bother to attend such courses may reduce claims, that's all, that is not proof that the general populace will benefit. do they really offer a premium that is in the end cheaper than their competitors who offer no such discount, I did get quotes from one, I cant remember it was so long ago after I completed one of the adt courses(no I didnt pay, it was a freebe).

I am with an insurance broker, my full premium is $870 year. With discounts for recognised driving courses $610 year. With discounts for no claim bonus $518.

So yep, insuring a car for $38k is much cheaper after doing these courses. I guess my broker realises the importance of these courses, more so because the person who owns the business attends these very courses once a year. They do not extend the discount to only car drivers but to truck owners who also complete the relevant courses in heavy vehicles. I will apologise now though, I have no such internet links to back up my claims. I could however find some out of date report that has no relation to this country and really no relevance to this topic if you like? Actually, scratch that offer, I can't be ****ed, perhaps as your the google king you could find them for me?

Also RACV offer their own driving course which will also give you a discount, however, the course costs you.

Seriously, stop posting bullshit just to post, we are all getting tired of you having an opposing argument to every topic.
 

thestig

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And the 'asbestos cork award' goes to.....

<snip>
Can I ask what topics were covered in the course you attended?

You can ask, but I doubt you'd get a relevant answer....

He can't remember, wasn't paying any attention. He was too busy seaching his "internet of links" for references that disprooved the first words that left the instructors mouth. :whistling

L8r
 
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