Are the (MSE/Director) & Magnum the best factory standard performance sedans/utes ever made?

One of the most awesomesaucest things I've heard was an HQ Monaro with a big-block in one of the Targa Tassie stages which winds along the side of a valley; the echoes off the valley walls as it approached, the deep angry bellow, the Doppler effect as it passed & the echoes as it continued on it's way.

First time I saw an A45 in the work car-park I double-taked; it had the ride-height & wheels of an A45, but I thought someone had modded a diesel A200/A250 due to the sound.

 

Nice chart.

Hard to compare the Holden to the German stuff as price point is not the same. Like comparing Josef Fritzl with Rolf Harris.

The e90 m3 prob good comparison with the latest Holden. It even stole their hood grilles. The German is just abit more sophisticated and abit more exciting to rev, but yes trying to get any more power out of it is very difficult in NA form. Interesting discussion and lots of viewpoints.

If you rate it on $ per excitement ratio the Holden would be up there.

Let’s say we’ll the most exciting car is a Porsche 911r and that’s 100 points for $800k and the least exciting car on for sale is a Great Wall Ute $20k for 1 excitement point. Holden ssv redline is probably 68 excitement points for $60k. (Monstar may be dissapointed that I have been a bit stingy with the rating). As a base for walking is probably about 3 excitement points (on a windy hot day probably more) and let’s say it costs $300 for runners and clothes.

So on homeowner mike litoris’s excitement list

911r $8000 per ML excitement point
vF SsV RL $882.35 per ML excitement point
Great Wall $20000 per ML excitement point
Walking $100 per ML excitement point.


As a direct comparison well walking probably offered best bang for buck.

 

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I drove the boss's C43 the other day. with the bimodals in full open mode. After about 10 minutes it was doing my head in. Though driving his W1 or my redline, i could listen to them all day.

It's horses for courses. I remember in the 80's some guys used to blow in their pants at the sound of a ported rotary. Used to drive me crazy.
I do agree though that nothing comes near an old 308 when it comes to aural pleasure.

 

Haven't driven an LE vf2, but found the power delivery on my vf2 redline was pretty bland and boring when it was stock off the show room floor.. i reckon my stock as a rock wrx was more exciting to drive.

I'll give it some points on its handling/braking, which isnt too bad for the shear size and weight of it, and im guessing this is where the LE commodores would excel..

From a performance point of view, the boring power delivery and inability to launch hard would have it loose my vote on being the best performance sedan. It excels in old man areas like towing a caravan and fitting a tribe of kids in the back, and the ability to modify the LS into a completely different beast with huge after market support - which is the main reason why i purchased one.

And the sound... but again thats subjective

 

LOL

 

Different cars for different roads. Despite having more than double of the power, my modified Redline ute was half the fun of my wife's Audi S1 on twisted Kings Highway from Canberra to Bateman's Bay.

 

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I think theres alot of hype over the LS3 engine, in stock form its pretty piss poor considering the displacement (408hp or 65hp/Litre). Yes it can be made into a beast (most engines can) but would've been nice to have a bit more character in stock form.

With slicks and a hi stall you would expect a decent 60 foot, cant argue with that.. can't really compare a fully rebuilt L77 to a stock car off the show room floor (even though he likes to)

Fords gen3 5.0L coyote is making good numbers in stock NA form (460hp or 92hp/Litre) shame they put it in a crap chassis. And then theres Chryslers 300 SRT with a 6.4L hemi which is probably the closest car to compare with the commodore in terms of size and old school NA V8.

Happy with the vf2's chassis just not that impressed with its boring stock power.. something im slowly sorting out.

 

I guess we have drifted from the OP's discussion, but at the end of the day it is horse for courses when it comes to cars. Whether its a Euro/Jap car we are now starting to compare the VF/LE to cars that are not even in the same category! How can we compare the performance of a C class / A class / S3 / S1 / Golf to a large sedan?

Hell driving home tonight the Redline reminded me that I am now driving a much larger car and I can no longer brake as late as I used to with the 911. The ability to turn in faster is gone and the floaty FE3 suspension with a seat that has no support makes it unpleasant to drive in an aggressive manner. Does this make it lesser of a car than the cars listed above? Far from it, its just different! Lets not take away the fact that this is the best Holden ever to be produced locally. Its not perfect but it made decent in roads for its final hurrah.

I was talking with my mate who has a heavily modified VE wagon over the weekend and confessed to him that I have to learn how to drive the VF before I can feel confident on the track again. Its a totally different beast. Now with 422rwkw it makes me think twice about powering out of a corner like I used to.

The difference we have in the VF/LE platform is a cheap base with cheap upgrades to get an amazing car and power. I am not being flippant about the costs, far from it. We talk about C63 that are 3x the price like they are in the same category as the VF. The hot hatches are great but once you hit 100+ watch the grunt of the big V8 real them in on a power circuit.

 

Sounds like a lot of effort to drive around a simple corner.

 

I take it you think of me quite a bit, let me just say I haven’t pioneered research and development to drag off and bag out $150-$250k Euro schaufensterpuppen!!
Sights are higher than that, three years ago this is the peer group of Naturally Aspirated aspirations I aspired to.
The game has advanced quite a bit since then.

 

Yeah mate awsome thread on the black pearl build so far.. would a gen3 coyote crate engine in the black pearl be too unorthodox?? At 92hp/Litre stock as a rock, surely thats got you frothing..

 

This thread started off asking for opinions on whether the stock LE Commodores match the other stock marque brands on performance and the thread boundaries have changed or morphed into good towing ability, easy to mod, exhaust sound, after sales service, hot hatches and so on and on

Since the death of the Falcon there hasn’t been a 4 door performance vehicle to compare the Commodore with in a ‘bang for buck’ comparison other than the for want of a word the ‘unfashionable’ 300C.

I know it’s a Commodore site and I get that the bulk of views will side with that model but for those who have spent time in or owned some of the marque brands and aren’t just conned by what someone else who hasn’t owned one has to say will know there is a lot more engineering in them than meets the eye and it is the engineering and the tech in these brands that eventually filters down to the cheaper models like the Commodore.

Pull some of these performance Germans apart next to a Commodore or Falcon and you’ll see why they cost more, I won’t say that the high price is actually justified for what you get but unfortunately here in Australia we pay a premium on such cars and if you want to own them then you have to pay.

The marque cars still go on while the V8 locals haven’t survived, it a real shame but it also says where the market has shifted with big N/A on the way out and smaller F/A the new king.

Ford made some stonking engines for their cars and dropped the ball on the creature comforts while Holden let the N/A LS engines date while concentrating right at the death knell on adding tech features.

And we as performance enthusiasts who lapped up these cheap alternatives to the expensive Euro and Jap offerings were the ones who loss out by their demise.

I own far more Holdens than any other brand and I’m a huge fan but I'd like to think I’m not silly and as good as the last LE, SS, SSV and Redline Commodores are they still didn’t stock for stock beat the higher end cars in any area other than price.

I know many owners would like to think otherwise but that the reality.




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