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Are VF's going to be collectables?

panhead

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mpower

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"market value" gotta love that terminology.
 

Derekthetree

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"market value" gotta love that terminology.

and we are back to the OPs question!

Yep, Tesla have undoubtedly lead the EV charge and brought some great innovation (OTA software updates) but the big guns are getting on par now (Taycan etc) and bring economies of scale Tesla can't match. Its still very much software business model reliant on investors banking on future promises, rather than generating its own cash.
 

Skylarking

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Economies of scale?

The biggest spend in an EV is the battery economies of scale mean diddly unless you can scale battery production. And which other car maker has its own mega battery plants?
 

Derekthetree

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Tesla sold 139,300 cars in Q3
BMW Group sold 675,000 in Q3
Toyota sold 837000 cars in September

You can dilute expensive EV investment into the rest of the portfolio, resulting in lower final pricing and more uptake.
I read an interesting article about the Dyson EV. engineering etc was all sorted but they couldn't make the numbers work because they couldn't take a loss on a only one model offering.

Like I said Tesla have/are doing a great job dragging the stone age car makers, but now they have caught up, they bring their other existing benefits (fit and finish, supply chains, dynamics (Teslas are fast but unexciting is my take))
 

Forg

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Like I said Tesla have/are doing a great job dragging the stone age car makers, but now they have caught up, they bring their other existing benefits (fit and finish, supply chains, dynamics (Teslas are fast but unexciting is my take))
It took GM & Ford USA 110-115 years to work out how to do handling, and Chrysler still hasn't worked it out ... Tesla's like 100 years behind them, let along the Euros. :)
 
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Derekthetree

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Benchmarking against Ford/GM/FCA for automobile technology is like benchmarking against the US for football/soccer.

Ok in isolation, but well below par in world terms.
 

Skylarking

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Batteries are currently made by LG Chem, CATL, BYD, Panasonic and Tesla (in order of GWhr capacity manufactured). Increased production capacity is being planned which should drive down costs but this seems to be countered by increasing raw material price which drive up cost.

Who knows where and how things will settle but within these battery businesses there will be a fight between volume, production cost (increasing raw material costs already a faster) and margin. Not everyone will do well but if production can’t meet vehicle makers needs, battery prices will go up while margins will go down. Depending on contracts, some battery makers may struggle as not everyone will do well... EV makers could see an already expensive product get pricier. And this doesn’t consider a change in battery tech...

As is, agreements already exists and BMW, who like Toyota, are aligned with CATL and Panasonic. So car makers would be competing with other car makers for batteries, unless they make their own like Tesla... Pay others for the privilege of securing volume isn’t a great strategy and from a layman’s perspective I’d guess it would be better to be Tesla who already has factories producing batteries and likely planning more. Tesla have vehicle production plants in USA, China and one being built in Germany (no5 to mention a solar roof tile plan in the states).

Tesla are in control of the most expensive component within the EV which must give them a competitive advantage.

Meanwhile others like BMW may be at the mercy of their battery suppliers... For BMW to cross subsidise their expensive EV’s using their ICE vehicles may not work well as customers and governments are funny creatures. Once these customers wake up to the fact they are subsidising EVs by paying a higher price for their ICE vehicle, it may be like a new dawn. The next thing to occur could be the wheels may fall off such cross subsidy mechanism very quickly as people stop buying ICE and buy EVs instead. Such may be shooting ones self in the foot moment...

Other countries governments (ours just don’t care) may also see such cross subsidies as anti competitive in the EV area and akin to dumping which laws prohibit so tariffs will follow to counter that behaviour.

Whatever the case, Tesla is going gangbusters and will still be a force going forward... how can they not with battery plants and car factories being built everywhere.

Oh, and as driverless tech takes hold, performance won’t matter any more and instead i5 will become comfort so Merican chassis experts will come into their own :eek:
 

Skylarking

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It took GM & Ford USA 110-115 years to work out how to do handling, and Chrysler still hasn't worked it out ... Tesla's like 100 years behind them, let along the Euros. :)
The Roadster was supposed to be a good handler bu5 like the S, X or 3, I haven’t driven any so can’t say how they perform in the twisties... But if you are not driving, you’re likely doing something else like social media surfing. In such cases, only comfort matters (and a knowledge of where the airsick bag is store), other performance stuff becomes irrelevant :(

We love our V8 commodores but. Tne general population wanted girlie trucks, so Holden is no more. The lemmings will always win, simply through shear volume :oops:
 
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