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Brake job quote . Is it excessive ?

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by Ron Burgundy, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    Interesting..
    Mine never made any noise...
    Squeeling does not have much to do with the compound anyway...
     
  2. eman1

    eman1 Active Member

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    When pads are installed correctly, squealing is almost always the compound. Any of the high performance options with pads will make some degree of noise. By high performance I mean pads with high metal content or carbon.
     
  3. Milo 6.0

    Milo 6.0 Member

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    Can anyone actually confirm if vf caliper bolts are tty or is it just heresay/holden profiteering?
     
  4. greenacc

    greenacc Searching for the billion

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    Anyone have some clear photos of the bolts? I have my doubts as Holden know heaps of people will reuse them but profiteering is so common the days that who knows....
     
  5. Milo 6.0

    Milo 6.0 Member

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    I have only ever known of headbolts to be tty,tty are usually torqued and never touched again because they never come undone removing the need for Loctite?
    Ill be reusing mine when I do my front brakes,ive always cleaned off the factory crusty Loctite from any caliper bolts and reused them and never had any come loose,if I did track days I would use Loctite,constant on and off abuse all day long,for sure.
     
  6. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    The workshop manuals from my older vehicles (not Holdens) would specify details about the TTY bolts (which have all been head bolts). As part of the specification, there would be a maximum length clearly defined for TTY bolts, which when exceeded would require the bolt to be replaced, as well as progressive torque settings (and angle in some cases).

    Now I havent looked into the Holden VF workshop manual in detail but i think it simply states if the bolt is to be replaced with no mention as to maximum usefull length. I can't believe Holden would make them so flimsy to be single use.

    Guess it's all part of the modern day mindset and the dumbing down the popluace where manuals are not needed for the things we buy as service is something that is not done by us owners but farmed out to 'professionals'. Oh well.

    But testing bolts is reletively simple. So if anyone who has bought new caliper bolts cares to do a such a test, then simply measure the length of the new bolt using a caliper gauge, then measure the length of the old bolt. Install the old bolt using Holdens recommended torque setting and process, then remove and repeat the measurement and reinstall. If they are TTY, they will get just that little bit longer after each use. And after a number of reuse cycles they will snap if they are TTY. It may take 5 or more cycles before they let go.

    It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to do this and will answer the question once and for all...

    But please check if and how the snapped bolt can be removed before taking it to the extream as i wont be held responsible for a stuck brocken bolt (though i suspect it should be loose and come out easily).
     
  7. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly the manual also says to replace slide pin bolts and they even come with new genuine pads....but they're definitely not TTY.
    Maybe they are just trying sell parts a with mad profit margin...
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
    lmoengnr and Milo 6.0 like this.
  8. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    But if the brake fluid fails the test and it's not replaced, owners have a hissy fit, because you didn't do the job properly....

    And as for bleed.....How else do you flush the system? Might be best you read a workshop manual to see how it's done
     
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  9. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Ron should mention the name of the place, so us forum users know the shonky place to avoid
     
  10. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    Makes it more interesting...
     
  11. greenacc

    greenacc Searching for the billion

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    Ah the good old brake fluid test!
    To me it's just another excuse to not do the whole job. If the service schedule says change the brake fluid I want the brake fluid changed. Simples! But the last time a mechanic actually flushed the fluid on any car I know was about ten years ago.
    No wonder so many people now bring their cars to me and say it feels so much better to drive...
     
  12. Trevor loves holden.

    Trevor loves holden. Well-Known Member

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    Bleed and flush are two different things in my book, Bleed is to remove the air from the line if any work has been carried out on the line, flush is removing all the fluid in every line and fluid reserve, it also bleeds at the same time.
    And don't accuse me of not knowing how to bleed or flush brakes, maybe you should go back to the start and read what he posted, no mention of a bleed as you don't need to remove the fluid lines, he asked them to replace the rotors and pads, my first though why isn't the handbrake adjustment cost not mentioned, bolts who replaces bolts on the first change? If he wanted to flush the lines he should of asked but a good mechanic would look at the log book and look at km's on the vehicle and test the fluid first before giving the Quote to see if its needed.
     
  13. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    Definitely no need to touch break fluid. Done by the dealer less than a year ago...
     
  14. Milo 6.0

    Milo 6.0 Member

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    Most places don't flush the fluid,they just suck the old brake fluid out of the reservoir and wipe it out and replace with new stuff,unless im replacing/repairing calipers I never bleed the brakes.
    I just messaged a guy selling genuine bolts on ebay and he said they are not tty,totally reusable if in good condition.
     
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  15. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    Sweet
     
  16. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Brake systems do not circulate fluid. The fluid just sits in the calliper getting hot through application of the peddle. Pressure is transferred via the peddle to the master cylinder via mechanical leverage, then to the calliper through the fluid itself since it’s non compressible. ABS systems may allow some minor circulation within the unit itself while cycling/operating but nothing can circulate the fluid within the line to the calliper or within the calliper itself. The fluid can only sit their getting old...

    And it’s the continued hot & cold cycling that will slowly degrade the fluid properties caused by actually using the brakes. Further, even rather old systems were completely sealed. Frankly I can’t see how the fluid would absorb any moisture from the atmosphere being that it’s a completely sealed system. But supposedly moisture gets in and it’s recommended by the vehicle and fluid manufacturers to change the fluid every few (4?) years.

    As it’s a safety issue, even if I have doubts that fluid gets contaminated with water absorbtion from the atmosphere, heat will kill it over time. So i listen to the manufacturer recommendations on this issue and consider that the fluid must be periodically flushed, completely... regardless of whether the hydraulic system was opened up for calliper work...

    So if I went to a mechanic who only changed the fluid in the master cylinder, I’d get him to do a full flush as was paid for and as is periodically required by the manufacturers. And I’d never go back to that mechanic again.

    In my older non ABS cars, I’d do a full flush every few years (when I had them)... to be sure to be sure ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  17. Trevor loves holden.

    Trevor loves holden. Well-Known Member

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    That's why I do most of my own work its hard to find a honest mechanic. I just flushed out my brake lines with my last pad change and had my rotors machined, I used my air compressor bleeding / sucking kit and now my brakes feel much better for only 20 bucks for fluid its well worth doing.

    Had a mechanic do my link pin bushers as I was unwell went for a drive and I hear this rattling noise so when I was well enough I jacked my car to look and he left the nut loose on one side so I decided to replace both again.
     
  18. losh1971

    losh1971 Well-Known Member

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    Even in a non ABS brake system a small amount of circulation does occur. The pistons move in and out ever so slightly which causes the fluid in the resi to go up and down, albeit a little. If you pump the pedal hard enough and the watch the resi really carefully you can see a tiny squirt back. Brake fluid also expands with heat and contracts when cool.
    The highly hydroscopic nature of brake fluid is why it still sucks in moisture. Even in a sealed system there is some access to moisture. But it takes close to two years to suck in enough for it to be a problem. Although having said that the amount needed to cause problems is still pretty minute.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  19. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    By the looks of it, they are doing it to be on the safe side.....Nothing worse than quoting on a job and finding out, you're charged more, because they did something necessary, like a fluid change, or they didn't do the fluid change and it needed doing, so the owner cracks a wobbly at you for not doing the job properly.

    As for bolt change....Read my post....I've never changed them

    Flush and bleeding....Hummmm....Read what you just wrote in the above quote right at the end of the first paragraph

    And it seems like he didn't need it to begin with, but it seems they were erring on the side of caution, which sounds to me like a thorough mechanic, albeit a rip off
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  20. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    @losh1971 what you describe it not fluid circulation in the true sence since the fluid in the calliper can never fully return to the master cylinder reservior. Rather, the fluid simply moves back and forth in equal minute amounts as you say. It's much like the slight back and forth rocking movements seen in nut wards :eek:

    Having said that, just like any fluid, hot fluid tends to rise while cool fluid tends to sink. This priciple of physics can cause fluid circulation in many large bodies of fluid. But even with this mechanism at play, it'd think it'd be limited to circulation within the calilipers itself. Such fluid circulation between callipers and reservior would be rather miniscule in brake systems due to the small tube diameters and the resistance such tubes create (to fluid flow). So i'm guessing such circulation would not be of much consequence.

    As to the highly hydroscopic nature of brake fluid, it's shelf life in a bottle is rather long since the bottle is sealed. And brake systems are also sealed systems just like the bottle the fluid came in. So if brake system is left sealed by not removing the reservior cap to check the fluid level, as had to be done in the old days of metalic non see-through reserviors, the fluid can only absorb mositure via atmospheric making it past the caliper/master cylinder piston seals (unlikely) or reservir cap seal (also unlikley). And just to define the sealed nature of the hydraulic system, the master cylinder fluid reservior incorporates a convoluted seal which is designed to accomodate the change in fluid level caused by the pads being consumed.

    As a parting note, most recommend changing brake fluid after a heavy track day as being a must do task. This seems to confirm that heat is a reall killer of brake fluid. But not being a racer, i can't attest to how hot the fluid in a main reservior would get. The more hydraulic fluid circulation that would occur, the hotter the reservior fluid would be. Maybe some racer has stuck his finger in the brake fluid reservior after a heavey session and can attest to fow hot or not it was ;) but hopefullty they can tell the differece between heat from the engine bay heating up the reservior fluid as compared to any heating that is possibly casued by circulation :p
     

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