Clunking grinding noise when trying to start SOLVED

[Promotec]

I went to start the Car today (VX Commodore 2001 v6 eco 3.8 duel fuel)

Turned the key and just heard a clunking really loud as thought the motor was seized *Oh F**K*
tried a couple of times same result, got my wife to turn key as I watched the motor same it wouldn't turn over like it was seized
the car had been used 3-4 hours earlier no problems went well, no noises or anything strange.

I talked to a friend who is a mechanic he couldn't get over to have a look he suggested first check the harmonic balancer

I removed the serpentine belt and examined the harmonic balancer all looks fine rubber between hub and outer metal ring looks fine
no obvious movement when trying to rock side for side etc.

I put a large spanner on the harmonic balancer centre nut to try turning the motor over manually it turned fine harder coming onto compression
of course but would turn fine no noises (but turning the crank shaft by spanner I didn't expect to hear any really)
So I left the belt of and tried starting with the starter again and this time just a horrific grinding noise when the starter engages
so loud you would hear it a couple of houses away.

To me it sounds like the starter gear grinding against the ring gear rather than engaging properly

I have spoken to my friend again he suggested broken flexy plate but Im not sure if that sits right with me
as the car doesn't even get to start as the sounds so bad I wouldn't be really game to keep cranking to try and start it.

My friend thinks that the starter shouldn't make a noise once the starter throw out gear is engaged may be after starting if the retractor spring is broken
but not while engaging.

I put the car up on stands with the idea of dropping out the starter motor to examine the throwout gear for clues, but I have been really sick lately
and laying under the car made me nauseous I got out from under the car and vomited profusely, from my sickness plus the stress and panick of my car being
stuffed as I live rural and we are dependant on it for transport being our only family vehicle

Has anyone encountered this before or have any idea what it may be

I have uploaded a wav file of the sound to my website it can be accessed here http://clairvision.net/noise.wav

 

[dirty hands]

you will have to remove starter and inspect it

 

[Promotec]

Yes I will pull the starter tomorrow and have a look
I tried pulling the inspection plate off the front bottom of the bell housing got the two small bolts out the two main 19mm
BH-Block ones were to tight for my current strength (being Ill) so Ill hit them with the air rattle gun (impact driver) in the morning
I thought that will give me a look in at the flexiplate and starter throw out gear/ring gear apparently you can tell if the flexiplate is
cracked by tapping it and the tone it makes to a keen ear. Getting the wires off the solenoid will be a prick as the LPG reg and gear obscures access
to the top of the starter so may have to drop the two bolts out turn it around then try and get the wires off, from memory getting the starter back in
after attaching the wires is a real challenge

 

[billythakid]

Mine done a similiar thing when the battery cooked itself internally
Drove it home and the temp went up to 3/4 coming down the street , pulled in the driveway and switched it off to open garage and wouldn't fire after , got a clunk clunk clunk from starter then nothing
It was 12.4 till the key was hit then dropped to 6.2 loaded

I thought I'd cooked the engine aswell . New battery next day and it was fine for 2 weeks til the alternator spat the dummy 5 mins from work .
Lucky my boss owns a auto eleccys across the rd

 

[Promotec]

Thanks for your response Billy, a stroke of luck for you having the bosses auto electrics over the road from your work
Unfortunately mine is more involved the battery is 2 months old and a you beaut $200 one not a cheapy so that side is all good.
If you heard the sound first hand when the starter engages you would know its not low battery, I wish it was

 

[BOOSTER]

double check for a flat battery they make a fair bit of noise like you described maybe your alternator or starter motor is stuffed
if you think its the ring gear you should see wear on the starter motor teeth and feel around where you took the starter out if you cant see in there
the ring gear is shrunk and tack welded over the flywheel

 

[Promotec]

Thanks for your feedback Booster I just went out and the battery is reading 12.7 volts on the multimeter, at this time of night I didn't want to have to reconnect the battery and check under load while starting but I will check that in the morning
just to ensure that every possibility is checked Thank you for your suggestion.

By the way its an auto so flexiplate rather than flywheel however similar principle

 

[devilly]

all i know is if you think starter motor the gears could be jamed a light hit with hammer works to unjam them,

check spark to spark plug when trying to start.see if you see a blue flash.be careful of course rubber gloves e.t.c.

 

[Promotec]

Problem solved, pulled out the starter motor, and the alloy molding on the end that surrounds 3/4s of the throwout cog that meshes with the ring gear
had total smashed off the end plate that's connected to the starter outer case.
On reflection that fate full morning first attempt to start the car backfired, then when trying to start again this is when the horrific graunching noise.
So in effect the backfire created reverse thrust on the starter and smashed it..... Hmmmm theres a new one neither myself or the attending mobile mechanic
had encountered this before.

Thanks for the responses guys

 

[wortus]

For next time remember that a bad battery can still read 12.7 volts on no load, a starter can draw up to 400 amps so to test the battery it has to have the voltage measured under a heavy load.

Thanks for your feedback Booster I just went out and the battery is reading 12.7 volts on the multimeter, at this time of night I didn't want to have to reconnect the battery and check under load while starting but I will check that in the morning
just to ensure that every possibility is checked Thank you for your suggestion.

By the way its an auto so flexiplate rather than flywheel however similar principle