Just Commodores Forum Community

It takes just a moment to join our fantastic community

Register

Difference between L67 and L98 6.0L Engines

Discussion in 'VE Holden Commodore (2006 - 2013)' started by ChargedBT1, Jun 18, 2008.

  1. SSVSE

    SSVSE New Member

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2012
    Location:
    nsw country
    Members Ride:
    my10 SSV SE L76
    Thank You Pir4te ! Very informative ! Do you think my Dec 09 built SSV SE L76 would have the revised lifters of the L77 ?

    Btw What exactly is the" VF f/r track update" you have on your Black Pearl ?

    Thanks
     
  2. Keesh

    Keesh GM Parts tech. support

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Location:
    3088
    Members Ride:
    HSV WL GRANGE LS2 , VQ 5L Caprice
    Put it this way, if we want to rebuild an L98 motor, holden only supply the L76 3/4 engines, to work around this we have to then add an L98 cam, swap the valley plate from the old motor, replace the 8 afm lifters and swap the oil pickup, we dont change the oil pumps at all

    Sent from my shoephone
     
  3. Keesh

    Keesh GM Parts tech. support

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Location:
    3088
    Members Ride:
    HSV WL GRANGE LS2 , VQ 5L Caprice
    Dont fall into the trap of thinking ALL ve run into this problem, like any model some have problems some dont.. its not a recall and its not a rework, ive seen taxis with 600,000 with original cam and lifters..

    Sent from my shoephone
     
  4. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

    Messages:
    2,747
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    AWOL with Ari
    Members Ride:
    Black Pearl
    You're welcome, thanks for the feedback! :yarr:

    The easiest way to check whether your L76 engine* has the MY9.5 update with the LS3 manifold and TB is simply lift off the Turtle cover, look to see if the MAP sensor is bolted in like the one in this video, which means it has the update.
    [video=youtube_share;S986_UdNkh8]http://youtu.be/S986_UdNkh8[/video]
    * I think I said L96 engine in the voiceover (which is yet to be produced, LOL) of course I meant to say L76.

    Sure, it's widely reported that there is no difference in track / wheelbase between VE & VF V8s but in fitting four pot differential bore Brembos I realised that despite identical platform and similar weight between model variants there is quite a bit of flexibility in the factory setup re: track widths and Front / Rear stagger from VE SS to Gen-F GTS:

    Front
    VE SSV 1592mm
    VF SSV 1602mm
    VE HSV 1616mm
    Gen-F 1622mm

    Rear
    Gen-F 1588mm
    VE SSV 1608mm
    VF SSV 1590mm
    " " 1608mm
    " " 1618mm

    In other words the new model designation is staggered 30mm wider track at the front on the GTS, 30mm wider at rear on the SSV Redline from the factory. So I decided to set my car up within the dynamics of these parameters.
     
  5. SSVSE

    SSVSE New Member

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2012
    Location:
    nsw country
    Members Ride:
    my10 SSV SE L76
    Thanks again PIR4TE ! After looking at your vid i see my SSVSE L76 has the update so im happy now.

    Re the track width VE vs VF , I understand , I must put it on the list for my beast ;-)

    Cheers !!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  6. nes138

    nes138 Member

    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Location:
    Gippsland Victoria
    Members Ride:
    FC HOLDEN with 5LT V8 (VT)
    Was the update a factory thing or done after?
    I don't have it
     
  7. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

    Messages:
    2,747
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    AWOL with Ari
    Members Ride:
    Black Pearl
    It was a factory thing. Many VZs and VE Series I L76s are over 400k still running strong.
     
  8. HamaTime™

    HamaTime™ VIP Member

    Messages:
    1,805
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VE SSV G8 & RV6 4Runner
    Check your Build plate in the engine bay to confirm?
     
  9. WazzaVN

    WazzaVN Wazza VN

    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VZ 6ltr ute, VP Calais and HJ Prem
    Hey pirate! While we're here lol!

    Did they ever end up putting a better manifold on the ls2? Because they ran till what, 08? So that kinda means you were better off buying a ve ss than hsv right? (engine wise only obviously)

    What was the manifold on the ls2 aswell out of curiosity, was it the same ls6 manifold off the ls1's?
     
  10. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

    Messages:
    2,747
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    AWOL with Ari
    Members Ride:
    Black Pearl
    Sure, I thought OP wanted to know how to tell from observing the engine (as in crate / exchange).
    I'm no expert on VIN spotting but from what I've read, in order to identify a 2009.5 model the last six digits begin with a 3, that means its a 2009.5. So the last seven characters would be like "L308712".
    There are other visual signs of the update apart from LS3 manifold and throttle body for those familiar with the engine, mostly bits shared with LS3:
    New Water Pump
    New Radiator Hoses
    New ECM Mounting Bracket
    And under the skin..
    ECM (shared new OS with LS3)
    TCM (shared new OS with LS3)
    BCM new 9.5 calibration with many subsystem changes
    New Valley Plate / Oil Manifold
    New Timing Chain Tensioner
    New Diameter for foul air passage
     
  11. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

    Messages:
    2,747
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    AWOL with Ari
    Members Ride:
    Black Pearl
    Better off with a GenIV with a different cam than a Corvette of a couple years before, yes. The new L92 heads were a breakthrough, meaning the old manifold was dropped. Interestingly the radius bar tumbling device used in the LS2 manifold was left behind. However I've found by retrofitting that, porting the plastic and a ported version of the better flowing LS3 TB, you get 290-310CFM using same lift as LS2. On G8s in the States, world records for our car are being rewritten every couple of weeks.

     
  12. Krupt

    Krupt New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Location:
    NSW
    Members Ride:
    VE SSV
    Sorry for digging up an old thread, but i cant find the last bit of info on the differences between the L98, L77, L76. Why is it that some VE SS's have a 6500 rpm redline, and others ( my 07 manual ssv ) have a 6000 rpm redline...
     
  13. The 10th Doctor

    The 10th Doctor ambitious but rubbish

    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Location:
    Perth, WA
    Members Ride:
    MY12 VE SS-V
    Might be because you've got the L98?
     
  14. WazzaVN

    WazzaVN Wazza VN

    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VZ 6ltr ute, VP Calais and HJ Prem
    I'd say the L76 would have the lower redline due to the gay lifters. I think the l77 got better lifters. My vz l76 stock tune won't let me rev past 6.

    Anyway, waits for pirate :yarr: lol
     
  15. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

    Messages:
    2,747
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    AWOL with Ari
    Members Ride:
    Black Pearl
    Haha thanks but I've never seen the dash of an L98. What I can contribute is that my car is an auto and the dash has red marks starting at 6000 too. As far as redline being a recommended safety limit - the fastest, farthest, or highest point or degree considered safe - revving the engine past it's peak HP RPM with diminishing return and increased mechanical friction is possible but just because you can why would you want to do that?

    All GenIV 6.0 engine variants officially hit peak HP at 5300 rpm, the L77 has been revised to 5700 rpm in some literature, however I personally doubt the veracity of essentially same engine achieving same output with same valve events at higher RPM. That's marketing, as it is flat-lining and there is no point revving the stock engine past 5300:

    That's because with a stock GenIV 6.0 engine the Intake Valve lift to prevent choke at 5300 is .482, spot-on same as the cam, i.e. the stock engine begins to choke at 5296 RPM. Given at that engine speed the amount of air induction @ 28" is between 175 to 185 CFM, this equates to the engine's output - 270 kW and 540 Nm.

    Yes there is a difference in the published redline between L98, L76 and L77 because of slight variance in the valvetrain. However since the world record holder runs a naturally aspirated L76 with AFM lifters in place and revs waay past that published redline, so is incorrect to assume that the lifters are holding back the engine from higher RPM or more performance.

    FWIW I think the stock fuel cut-out is at 6000-6100 for good reason, increased performance from an unopened GenIV doesn't come through wringing its neck 5300-6100 (or beyond) without better control (safety) of the valve train and increasing the Trapped Ve%. With correct control and valve events plus usual bolt-ons you can rev reliably up to 6400 no matter which variant. You can rev past that (up to 7000) but you will need to open the engine and essentially rebuild key components.
     
  16. 07GTS

    07GTS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,846
    Likes Received:
    414
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Location:
    Australia
    Members Ride:
    VEGTS BLOWN E85
    my ls2 when stock made power to 6k and u could feel it not make any more after that so i pretty much never took it to the limiter at 6600
     
  17. WazzaVN

    WazzaVN Wazza VN

    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VZ 6ltr ute, VP Calais and HJ Prem
    Thanks, good info!
     
  18. Krupt

    Krupt New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Location:
    NSW
    Members Ride:
    VE SSV
    Thanks for the info. Still Confused as to which variants rev to 6500. Is it just Auto VE's ? or a certain year model ?
     
  19. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

    Messages:
    3,862
    Likes Received:
    2,653
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Location:
    Wagga Wagga
    Members Ride:
    VF Redline Sedan - A6 Spitfire MSE...
    Any L98 I've seen had a 6,000 redline on the tacho, same as the L77. From memory my LS1's were 6150rpm? This was raised in tune's though. I thought only the LS2's and 3's revved to 6,500 due to the cam profile and compression ratio creating decent HP at a higher rev range, so naturally HSV would have had the fuel cut off set higher? I could be wrong though.

    I agree, it's not worth ringing their necks. Although even as power starts to drop off, there are probably a few 10ths to be had over the quarter by holding gears due to the current ratio spinning things a bit quicker before the change and also resulting in the engine being in the sweet spot on the torque curve in the next gear. that's racing though and we're talking street cars here.
     

Share This Page