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DJR Team Penske Cheating?

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by immortality, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    So the question needs to be asked, are DJR team Penske cheating with their engines? Scotty's Bathurst qualifying engine was found to be out of spec, in particular "the valve lift in a number of cylinders was found to have exceeded the maximum permitted valve lift prescribed by the ESD for Car #17. "

    Full article, https://www.supercars.com/news/championship/full-decision-djrtp-bathurst-engine-case/

    The engine was changed before the race because they were worried about it failing (or so they say) or the more cynical of us would say they knew it was out of spec and didn't want it in the car if he won and the car went through scrutineering?

    Now I'm no engine building genius but you don't gain extra valve lift due to wear and tear so if wear and tear was an issue it is quiet possible that all the lobes on the suspect engine were out of spec and only due to wear and tear that they came in under? Valve lift is critical to making power in these engines so increased valve lift certainly does mean more power.

    The DJR team Penske response, https://www.supercars.com/news/championship/djrtp-responds-to-technical-breach/

    Team Penske seems to have a history of bending the rules in Nascar so is it a real surprise that they would try similar tactics here. I'm starting to think having the US outfit here isn't a good idea any more after watching the Penske interview after the Bathurst win when all he cared about was winning the race regardless of tactics used.

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=team+penske+cheating

    Debate away but please keep it civil.
     
  2. mpower

    mpower Well-Known Member

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    DJR stinks. They'll be remembered this year as cheats.
     
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  3. Deuce

    Deuce Super Stock

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    What is the valve lift limit?
    Are these motors still running cam in block (or ohc)?
    How far over? 0.001"?

    Do they grind there own cam's?
     
  4. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    Reputation of the team and the drivers has been tarnished forever. Totally against the spirit of the race. Even if they aren’t totally disqualified, they’ve lost overall.

    Doesn’t matter how much extra lift the qualifying engine had, it’s no accident that it was different. Those things are blueprinted so parts are made with incredibly small tolerances to ensure they’re within spec.
     
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  5. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    The Bathurst win is certainly tarnished. IF the engine anomaly was found at the time they would have started at the back of the grid which would have completely changed the great race. Gotta feel sorry for Scotty, he's just the driver, what the owner does is out of his control but I have serious doubts about the character of the new team owner and he's now pulled DJR down with him.


    No idea what the valve lift limit is but the cam is a control unit supplied by someone to all the teams and yes, still a push rod V8 :)
     
  6. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    All teams are operating at the limit of the rules and will continue to push the bounds of what is acceptable/allowable. Some will get caught while some will get away with it.

    The farcical thing for me is the level of fine is not commensurate with the benefit obtained. Heck a $30k fine for gaining the unfair advantage which would have assisted in achieving pole position for the main race seems like such a bargain as they got to keep their win. So these days fines are just the cost of doing business :oops:

    I used to watch racing before and up to and including when GTR was built to the group-A rules and clobbered the field. Sadly it was weight penalised and power limited into a sort of submission before being pushed out via rule changes. At that point I lost interest as it was just business and a commercial benefit to get the lab rat conditioned crowd supporting a Ford verses Holden inbred two horse race. That racing was no longer for me though I occasionally watch.

    Anyway, cheats have been around forever and with todays mind numbing marketing and advertising, all seems to be forgiven soon enough; some tea? or sand paper and cricket anyone?
     
  7. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    This has nothing to do with pushing the limits as the cam is a control item. Lobe lift + rocker ratio = valve lift. Clearly they have played with something to increase valve lift and ended up outside of specifications. I agree though, the penalty is a joke. They should have been excluded from the Bathurst results period.

    And your sand paper captain/crew should have been banned for life as well!
     
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  8. Mattricho

    Mattricho Active Member

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    I do feel sorry for Scotty because the team has really killed the great year he has had.

    But unfortunately I think the car #17 should have been stripped of everything from Bathurst because as already said he did qualifying on that engine and the top 10 shootout. No doubt he would have been in the top 2 rows but you just never know.
     
  9. figjam

    figjam Donating Member

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    "The valve lift of the inlet valves in the Q Engine (but not of the R Engine) was measured by Supercars Technical personnel to exceed the Maximum Valve Lift of 0.710” in 5 cylinders (highest recorded measurement 0.7135”.

    I have no idea what .0035 inches is in the real world, but it must be a lot in the Supercar world. Nobody will remember it in 2021 anyhow.
    Melbourne Storm had 2 NRL premierships stripped, plus other penalties, for cheating the salary-cap. People were outraged at the time, and nobody cares now.
     
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  10. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Going past some hard boundary on a control item is indeed pushing the limits as I'd describe it but that's probably a language or semantics thing. Well, we do agree that the penalty was a joke but I'd go further and say that the Bathurst win should have also been canceled or excluded from the history books (not instead of) ;)

    As to "my sandpaper captain", I don't like cricket. I've tried to watch it but i get bored. The few times I've seen a game live, my attention wanders just as something occurs, but because of looking way at seagulls or other birds, I always miss the event :rolleyes:
     
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  11. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    That's 0.8mm more lift so must make some difference if it was intentional. It would have been interesting had they compared the ECU fuel tables between the Q (infringing) and R (legal) engine as more inlet valve lift with appropriate fueling must create more power. Even if fuel tables were the same, more valve lift on the exhuast side must help to evacuate the cylinders which can't hurt the fill side of the stroke ;)

    Cheats really.... whether pushing boundries or however one wants to define it :p
     
  12. keith reed

    keith reed Active Member

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    It wasn't that many years ago that DJR were always to the rear of the pack and going nowhere. It might be a coincidence but life has got better
    for them since Penske came on board. We can only surmise. Their mustangs have had the legs on all the other cars for all but the last two races.
    Scotty might be a fine driver but there is more to it than that.
     
  13. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    It's **** all really, 0.004" is approx 0.1mm so to you and me it's not a lot but in engine building terms where clearances are measured down to .0001 you can see that .0035" is a fair chunk especially considering it is a control item and it would be rigorously checked during manufacture. The cam is the heart of the engine and everything is optimised to suit it to gain max performance.
     
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  14. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    ^ Oops, I missed a zero when calculating the metric equivalent in my post :confused:
    0.0035" = 0.08mm ; maybe SFA is laymans terms.
     
  15. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    They alter fuel pressure (which also has set maximum and minimums) to adjust fuelling. I believe that is the function used to lean out the engine to save fuel.
     
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  16. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    The thing that one would have to wonder is, has this occurred during the season, yet has only been found during Bathurst? What other things have occurred, in "pushing" the boundaries, throughout the season?

    The fine to me is a joke....Even removing Scotty's pole position is a joke....To be fair to everyone else in the field, the results for DJR should have been exclusion from the whole event....That's what occurred back in the 90's, when the Sierras were found to be using fuel additives (or something similar)

    As for Scotty and his season.....Yes he has a stella season, but the cloud over what has occurred at Bathurst and what may have occurred throughout the season, certainly has to make you wonder what role this infringement and possible others have played in his season and what he actually knew.
     
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  17. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    The law considers anyone before the court innocent until proven guilty. If/When they are found guilty, their punishment is dependent on previous convictions amongst other crap (like poor childhood, not rich enough, too rich... just crap cry me a river excuses). It's the best we've come up with ;)Sports code rules of conduct mimic such logic.

    Even though i suspect, once a cheat, always a cheat, laws/rules/codes all look at it differently.

    In my view, punishments need to be far more severe for all offenses (even off ball assaults in football games where criminal law rather than code of conduct should rule).

    But it's $$ that rule and it's business as usual :rolleyes:
     
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  18. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    Blatant cheating.....and then to throw the engine supplier under the bus is just bullsh!t.

    All of their results from Bathurst should be scrubbed with a clear note that it was due to cheating.

    Just another example of the greedy capitalist pig attitude that I expect prevails in the Penske organisation.
     
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  19. Mattricho

    Mattricho Active Member

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    I don’t think car #12 should be included as the whole go slow thing is a separate issue that has been resolved this is all about car #17.
    I think the car’s engines (everyone in the field) are checked every 2-3 rounds so you would think if anything like this has happened before Bathurst is would have come up before now.

    Its definitely got to be an American thing because before Penske come along was there controversy like this?

    Sh*t Red Bull dominated for like 7 years with out anything like this.
     
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  20. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    A few years ago Flavio Briatori was banned from F1 (he was the Renault team Principle) for making one of his drivers crash his car to manipulate the use of a safety car and help his team mate win. Clearly precedence is set in the FIA for severe punishment for people who manipulate race results. Considering the team possibly used multiple different methods to try manipulate the race outcome removing Penske from V8 Supercars isn't without merit.
     
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