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DJR Team Penske Cheating?

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by immortality, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. Deuce

    Deuce Super Stock

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    So a race team isn't allowed to build there own motors to a spec? Where's the fun in that.

    Yeap, nascar trick. But I was just proposing an alternative line of thought.

    Again a sad state of affairs if a race team cannot build a race motor or maintain it between rounds.

    That's a completely different event racing with sealed motors and/or hoods.
     
  2. immortality

    immortality No more smoky bacon :( Staff Member

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    It's been like that for many years now. Engine is very restricted with control parts and minimum weight specs on parts to prevent teams with big bucks using exotic materials.
     
  3. Boomslang

    Boomslang New Member

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    I agree, .0035" is the thickness of your hair, hardly measurable HP difference, definitely ain't gonna make you win a race, not a chance in hell. Notice how, not all tappets were set tight, or did the lash become tighter from the valves recessing after 1000km???
    Did CAMS check any of the other cars???
    I really don't understand why people bother following the whole Supercars Holden vrs Ford thing, let's face it , the only part on the Holden that is actually Holden is the badge as best as I can tell. They run a Chev small block 8.2" deck ht motor, Ford 9" crown wheel and pinion, and the heads are copied from Ford, so in reality they're more Ford than they are Holden. Pretty sad really
     
  4. VFSV6FORME

    VFSV6FORME Well-Known Member

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    Interesting! same habits but in two different countries. Personally I despise Cheaters and Penske fits that bill.
    The Below was Quoted by immortality
    "Here are the two ways of looking at it: Penske is cheating up its cars. Period. How else do you explain both Penske crew chiefs getting suspended for violations in the first eight races of the year? They cheated, they got caught. And if your team gets caught multiple times, in my opinion, the penalties should get progressively more severe.

    It looks terrible for NASCAR’s credibility to have one-third of the races in 2017 won by a team that has been caught red-handed cheating up both cars. It makes this sport look like pro wrestling."

    https://www.foxsports.com/nascar/st...ys-look-penske-nascar-cheating-scandal-050417
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
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  5. Boomslang

    Boomslang New Member

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  6. Boomslang

    Boomslang New Member

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    Yeh, you're right, cheating is cheating, that's why they have rules, but when there's large amounts of $$ that will always be the case. I remember talking to a well known head porter a number of years back.... he worked for a major Holden team ( not HSV)... this was when they were running the 305 VN headed motors... anyway they would go out to the Holden foundry and rub the port castings (this adds extra metal so heads could be ported in areas that normally would be water jackets)... I said to him "wouldn't you class that as cheating"? He said " the other teams are doing it"??? Maybe they were or maybe they weren't.. . who knows??? Pretty hard to police that. I did speak with Peter Brock once, when they were running the first Chev heads.... might of been 18deg heads back then( from memory), and he said that they would tell GM how they wanted the ports setup, so that the ports could be cnc'd to their specs.... nothing really wrong with that as the heads are really only made for cc'ing anyway.
    Like I said, earlier .... I don't have any idea why anyone for bother following V8 super cars, they aren't Holden's & Ford's, they're purpose built race cars.
     
  7. immortality

    immortality No more smoky bacon :( Staff Member

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    Perkins did the head thing with Holden and it was technically within the rules as the heads came from the Holden foundry. There is a video floating about with an interview with the man himself and he explains what he did and how he was making as much power from a Holden motor as HRT were from the Chev but V8 Supercars mandated the use of the Chev motor and killed of the Holden donk as a race engine even though he was beating em still.
     
  8. VFSV6FORME

    VFSV6FORME Well-Known Member

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    Yes Perkins was Force to use Chev Engines. I like the 8 throttle body Perkins had, It Did not have 8 Butterflies but had 8 slider that Slide away to give more air because the Butterflies restrict the flow of air.
     
  9. greenacc

    greenacc Searching for the billion

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    The biggest problem with supercars, and Formula 1 is all the stupid rules. They should either be standard street cars like the good old days, or race cars. Not the homologated rubbish we have now. Pretend Holden's and Fords that are all the same because the rules don't let anyone do anything different. So I say good on team Penske for showing that it's the rules slowing everyone down and that the sport would be a lot more interesting if the teams were allowed to build their engines properly!
     
  10. immortality

    immortality No more smoky bacon :( Staff Member

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    I can understand some of the rules and rules are rules so if you break em you must pay the price.

    I don't think you can compare F1 to Supertaxis. F1 create rules to slow cars down because if they didn't they would be going over 400km/h and the risk factor would be to great and as the premiere race category they also need to showcase technology. Unfortunately with the current generation of F1 it has become a tech race more than a physical race and with the restrictive rules once the cars are built not much changes. Hopefully the new 2021 rules will see a change.

    As for the supertaxis, I totally agree that the race cars need to have something on common with the road cars. Seeing as their isn't even a real Holden any more the point almost seem mute. However, I can understand some of the engine rules which were designed to make the category more competitive by preventing the use of exotic materials which only the teams with the deepest pockets can afford. The #17 cars engine was found to be outside of the required specifications and they should have paid the price but they didn't and this will just make other teams want to push the boundaries with the rules too.
     
  11. Aussie Trev

    Aussie Trev Active Member

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    Back in the days of Holden V8's running in Bathurst etc, HSV used to plasma cut the inlet manifolds open along the cast marks, rework all the insides and then put them back together.
     
  12. figjam

    figjam Donating Member

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    Brock had a polarizer on his race cars, was that homologated ? No ........ so he was technically cheating.
     
  13. Reaper

    Reaper Tells it like it is.

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    I know I'm late to the party but here's my 2c.

    With regards to valve lift - I suspect they built the engine to push the boundaries (ie lift supposed to be under the tolerance hard limit but possibly over the 'permitted' lift) which is within the rules but for whatever reason it went wrong, probably accidentally. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one - motor was still within the dyno acceptable power limits so it's clear no performance advantage was received.

    FCO slowing the field down - very hard to argue anything else but to improve #17 track position (and FCO as well for that matter not needing to double stack) which is way outside the allowable 5 car limit as stipulated in the rule book. The look on Ryan Storey's face during the coverage spoke volumes and for me that episode was nothing more than cheating.

    When it comes to 'team orders' - the concept is allowed in every form of motorsport. Team orders include instructions to pit, push (go as fast as you can), save fuel (slow down so you will make the end of the race) to name a few. The only difference is where each category draws the line. In supercars it's clear that the finishing position within the team (team mates moving over for example) is fine. Altering the outcome of other cars is strictly off limits (eg the FCO situation) or the celebrated F1 Renault crash contraversy that earned Flavio Brivatore a life time F1 ban a few years back. It can be a very grey area although in the FCO instance I think it is very clear.
     
  14. Reaper

    Reaper Tells it like it is.

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    Depends on the rules of the day. I highly doubt a 'little box of magic crystals' was mentioned one way or the other. It's a very very long bow to conclude he was cheating.

    There were other instances where Brock was fined (1989 Bathurst Pole position fire extinguisher over the inter cooler fiasco) and was excluded from the entire ATCC in the early 80's over using an illegal cylinder head.
     
  15. Reaper

    Reaper Tells it like it is.

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    It's a commercial problem fundamentally. The good old days of Group A, C and even improved production of the 70's are viewed thru rose coloured glasses when it comes to competition. Really only 1 mousetrap had a realistic chance of winning (particularly in Group A) and everybody else made up the numbers. The manufacturers near universally bailed from Group A in the late 80's and it was superseded by Super touring, (what became) V8 Supercars and DTM which were all much better attempts at parity formulas. Group A was supposed to be a parity formula however the rules were very naive and were 2 - 3 steps behind technology at every turn.

    Fast forward to now and the parity model is probably the best it ever has been. Going back to production based stuff just won't work. Look at the roaring (NOT!) success the Utes have been. Dual cab diesels are the biggest category in Australia by a fair margin so you would think it would relate well to the public. Seems not. I personally like them and look forward to the V8's back in them this coming year. Seems we are moving away from production again.

    Supercar is not bad. I think the public will cop not being a production car so long as the silhouette is pretty close (need a heap of work here to make the Mustang fit). The last couple of seasons have been monumental for Supercar. 888 started by doing a massive job homologating the ZB - pushing the rule book as far as they could. Then DJR lifted the bar again with the Mustang. They dropped the nose which further highlighted the over height glasshouse exaggerating the comical look of the car. They pushed the limits with stupid heavy zorst mufflers (etc) to bring the COG down and according to a friend I have that works as a consultant to several of the teams, had the end plates of the rear wing running all the way down nearly to the ground. Apparently there is a forward/rearward control dimension, a max height but there was no min height in the rule book - that one did get thrown out before it made prototype stage (I'm told). Can't blame DJR - they build a car to the rules and would see what they can get away with. Seems they got away with most of it at least for the first part of the season. It took Supercars a bit to catch up.

    Now to the question of what is popular - Production based? Nup. All that means is unreliable. Manufacturers and sponsors won't cop that any more. What we do need is a race car that looks like a road car and back off the wings a heap. Supercar are moving that way. Not quite the amount I'd like to see - ie minimal aero so the good old dive bomb pass into a corner can be a thing again without getting some stupid penalty. Parity is there weather you like it or not. Roll forward on control parts such as suspension uprights etc (they have introduced control dampers for the next season). The well funded teams are still going to win however the chances of BJR, Kelly Racing and the like of regularly snatching wins is far greater than they have now.
     
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  16. wagon37

    wagon37 Member

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    I've been up to Bathurst the last two years and it is still a great spectacle however it is hard to get energised about a "Mustang" that doesn't look like a Mustang and a ZB "Commodore" with a V8 when you know such a thing can't be purchased.

    The Penske engine thing didn't bother me because it was such a small infringement and probably unintentional. The FCO slow down was probably a step too far.
     
  17. VFSV6FORME

    VFSV6FORME Well-Known Member

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    A funny thing is I have a Friend that I have met on the internet and he is a Moderator on The V8 central site and he put a post on about all the dirty dealing of Penske how he has bent the rules and done anything just to win all the way back to 1975, Yes he Link this by googling Penske and he posted all the time that Penske teams have done this but it was DELETED by other Mods. Interesting! how to suppress the truth what available to all to see but this site V8 central http://www.v8central.com/snitz3403/
    wants to hide the truth. He also said this site is FORD Biased so what do you think why hide whats available on the WWW, but on the nose what you stack them all together and see the times and what his teams have done in the past.
     

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