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Ecotec Vs Alloytec SIDI

Discussion in 'V6 Development And Modification' started by TheDiddler, Mar 9, 2017.

Alloytec SIDI vs Ecotec?

  1. Alloytec SIDI

    45.5%
  2. Ecotec

    54.5%
  1. TheDiddler

    TheDiddler New Member

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    Hi there fellas,

    I am in the market for a new rig and am looking for a 6. I am wondering what your thoughts and opinions are on these engines and what I should get. My mate has an SV6 SIDI Ute and it has a nice amount of power. I have heard people have had problems with the earlier Alloytecs. Are the new ones improved and reliable? I have also heard Ecotecs are usually very reliable and have more usable torque despite being quite a bit slower? I will also be modifying the Car/Ute (what ever I get).

    Cheers!
     
  2. Trayner

    Trayner Fresh prince of Pakky

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    Depends on what you want and budget . And how often you will service the car.


    Ecotec , good power for a 6 . old style engine real easy to work on and wont sludge up if you forget to service it for awhile.

    Alloytec, faster then a ecotec , more modern engine , but a real pain in the ass to work on it . and if you forget to service it every 5k or so you will be getting sludge inside . Also the issue of the stretched chains and that too .
     
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  3. TheDiddler

    TheDiddler New Member

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    I am looking at really getting into cars. I am still learning but will be doing a lot of the work myself, it sounds like the older engine would be a better bet. Then again if I looked after the SIDI I wouldn't have any problems?
     
  4. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    Ecotec if you want something cheap and reliable.

    The standard alloytec isn't any faster than an ecotec equipped commodore in my experience. I find the ecotec nicer to drive as it doesnt need to be revved as hard to get it moving. The SIDI is quicker though

    I've heard first hand from a few people saying that their new vf's with the sidi engine are using alarming amounts of oil. Not sure whether it's an isolated problem to just one batch of engines or whether it's luck of the draw across the board.
     
  5. Tonner Matt

    Tonner Matt Well-Known Member

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    Have owned a couple of ecotec powered commodores, I had a 2000 VS series III ute, missus had a 2002 VX series II sedan that we sold to buy her what she is currently driving, a 2003 VY series I ute.
    So you could say I'm pretty fond of the ecotec engine, and with good reason too.
    They are very reliable when maintained properly and pretty damn economical if you don't drive them like Shane Van Gisbergen driving a V8 supercar.
    They are a great platform to start to learn all sorts of car related stuff on, very easy to do basic maintenance on and relatively cheap to service on a regular basis too.
    But like any vehicle/engine, there will be times when things just **** themselves. It happens and it's just the nature of the beast with anything mechanical.

    Anyway it's ecotec all the way for me, you only have to look through the VZ & VE section of the forum to see heaps of threads about engine issues with the Alloytec......engines full of sludge, stretched timing chain issues, faulty cam sensors, check powertrain warnings etc etc etc. And having to remove the top of the inlet manifold to replace coil packs & spark plugs is just an expensive joke. These are some of the reasons I chose to stay away from an alloytec powered commodore anyway.

    This is obviously only my opinion and some people will disagree with my comments/reasoning. All good with me....Each to their own anyway.
    Do some research here on the forum and I'm pretty confident that you can make an educated decision.
     
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  6. TheDiddler

    TheDiddler New Member

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    I suppose if I wanted something that is by definition "quick" I'd get a V8 haha. Mainly my mates Ute is very comfortable and a lot nicer inside then my old VZ. What ever I get will be manual also.

    Funny how you say that, I had to replace an engine in my VZ and before I sold it, it kept popping up with "CHECK POWERTRAIN" My goodness it was annoying, that was one of many problems with my VZ.
     
  7. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    If it's an ecotec it's only worth going with an auto. The manual offering (getrag) are a horrible box. Extremely noisy, clutches are very expensive due to the dual mass flywheel and they're weak.

    If it absolutely must be manual, go for the alloytec. If you'd settle for auto, go the ecotec.

    I'd go for an ls1 with t56 any day of the week over the above options (sorry to bring it up). Running costs aren't that great for the v8 in comparison to the alloytec imo as it's not working nearly as hard to produce the same result ; provided you can tame your right foot. The LS is an old design like the ecotec, with fewer moving parts than an alloytec (I.e fewer things that can go wrong and cost you money).

    Whatever you go for, look for good service history and a mature owner.
     
  8. TheDiddler

    TheDiddler New Member

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    Nah all good mate open to many options, more then just the two I have listed. I am only 19 but I might be able to stretch to get a nice V8, how do the LS1s compare the the VE 6.0s?
     
  9. Zeke Topanaga

    Zeke Topanaga Active Member

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    From what I have seen of the SIDI Alloytec V6 is by looking at the tail pipes and you will see a huge amount of carbon build up on some, you could scrape it off, some are about 1mm thick so something must be wrong.

    Maybe it's that they were not run it correctly, most people get it all wrong and think they have to pussy foot the engine, that is totally wrong thing to do and you end up with a gutless engine that uses more oil, I have never seen a new engine that has been destroyed by getting right up them on day one, and they then do perform well and do not use oil.

    I do around 50,000KM a year.
    My Jun 2003 VY 5.7L never used any oil at all from new to 220,000KM maybe 1mm down on the stick at the most in 5,000 to 10,000km and flogged the piss and pick handles out of it at times.
    My 3 VS V6 ecotecs from new all used about 1 litre of oil in 10,000KM and that's normal for them engines, I would say it's to do with the piston design.
    My sequential 5.0L V8 used about 3mm down on the stick in 10,000KM at the most.
    Had a old XC 3.3L and it never used a drop of oil that I could see, all cars did a lot of highway driving so it's not due to short trips and not burning off the water condensation that can happen with such.
     
  10. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    None of my engines have ever used oil except for the old 202, even when driven hard. It really comes down to how theyve been looked after
     
  11. harrop.senator

    harrop.senator Well-Known Member

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    As a side not on the getrags. Pends how hard you drive it and what your definition of unreliable is. My wifes put 70 thousand kms on her getrag and never had an issue. No bearing whine as of yet and cars got 230,000 kms on it.

    Its on its second clutch i cleaned the flywheel up with a wire brush attachment on the grinder and fitted a $145 clutch industries clutch new master and slave after buying it at 160,000kms. It still had heaps of meat on it when i removed it and went to the solid chrome moly flywheel and clutch which cost me $560 as i had to have it mirror balanced for the supercharger motor.

    Ive given the car an occasional hard time 2.5k first gear dumps snatching second in the dry and third and fourth gear clutch kicks in the wet no issues.

    Only getrags i personally know of that have had issues have been synchros going. Everyone i knew of drove them hard and had worn shifter bushes. In my opinion that would put a lot extra load under hard changes as wont be as precise.

    Also theyre only around $800 exchange for a reconned unit if it does start having issues and theyre tiny and take half an hour to remove. Theyre definitely not a perfect transmission but after hearing all the horror stories and then owning one myself as ive had them in a few bmws i can vouch theyre not thattttttt bad.
     
  12. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree that they 'can' be okay, but there seem to be more bad ones than good ones out there. I had one in my vs and it was sloppy and very noisy. Still drove alright though. Pulled it apart to put new bearings in and the bearings alone from bearing wholesalers were going to be $400+ at trade price because the bearings aren't common. Bought another auto from the wreckers for ~100, converted it to auto and it was good to go again.
     
  13. harrop.senator

    harrop.senator Well-Known Member

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    The sloppy shifters are $6 of nylon bushes they flog out on any external shifter manual transmission. Either turn up some brass ones or if you're really over it you cut the knub off the linkage drill press a hole through it and run a bolt and nut as tight as you can and it moves about 5mm at knob side to side in gear.

    Ouch thats pricey for the bearings a friend who rebuilt his bought a kit out of the states designed for a chevy or a bird with same box for about 260 delivered including circlips seals and gaskets.
     
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  14. Murdoch

    Murdoch Active Member

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    Im sure the early ecotecs had a T5 still???
    Im sure i have have one of both in previous VS's
    getrag was a bit sloppy, are gear ration were very different to the T5. They seemed to be lower ratios
    I liked the T5 better anyway. Better feel, more precise.
     
  15. harrop.senator

    harrop.senator Well-Known Member

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    Vs series one had t5 and series 2 and 3 getrag i think. Pends on your opinions i dont like cable clutched transmissions myself. The ford t5z with the hydrauloc clutch are definitely a nicer feeling trans but they stuffed up by changing the selwctor forks from cast to a nylon and they **** themselves.

    Ive had a couple of t5s and only manual box Ive ever blown and their was a few of them so could say im biased lol.

    You get good stories and bad stories about the both of them neither are a great transmission in my opinion but then again neither are 4l60es :p
     
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  16. greenacc

    greenacc Searching for the billion

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    I've had both ALLOY and Ecotec. The Ecotec was great to work on, simple and cheap for parts but I had to work on it three times as much as my alloytec because almost nothing has gone wrong with my alloytec in 7 years, and it was second hand when I got it.

    You will learn more with an Ecotec tho
     
  17. greenacc

    greenacc Searching for the billion

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    4L60E's have a lot going for them, it very hard to kill them for a start. You can service them with a $20 socket set and a $20 filter kit and when it eventually croaks you can get it rebuilt into a monster...
    AND they come standard with a dipstick!!
     
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  18. harrop.senator

    harrop.senator Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough my cars having the transmission rebuilt for the third time with 152ks of life in it from brand new with a motor that probably made 220whp. car will have 340-360 once back on the riad.

    Had red alto power packs billet servos moulded piston conversion 2 5/8th inch alto wide kevlar band type of box you pay 2.5k for...

    3-4 clutches are dead again, bans fried , toasted the drum it sat on , cracked a piston , broke an accumulator spring and probably a couple other things I'm forgetting about.

    If number three goes bang again im just going to throw a 4l80e at it and call it a day. Theyre basically a turbo 400 with od.
     
  19. rtmpgt

    rtmpgt New Member

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    Re: Alloytecs.

    Yes. They can have a shitload of issues with the chains. This comes down to owners mostly treating them like Ecotecs (i.e, basically run it until the oil turns black, and even then, she'll be right mate.)

    The truth is, they're not a bad engine if you do a few tweaks to them. Just remember, they're really oil sensitive and you absolutely need to service them every 5,000km.

    Other things you need to do:
    1: Drill the PCV's inlet and outlet holes one size up on the imperial drill size scale. This'll allow more oil to exit the valve cover that's notorious for causing the stretch issue. (If you crack open any alloytec you'll find scunge showing up more on one side of the engine than the other. this is due to the darker side having a restricted ability to vent positive crankcase pressure)
    2: Add a PCV Catch can especially if you have a Direct Injection model as oil gets fed back into the intake for burning. In DI models, because of a lack of fuel cleaning the valves you end up getting all kinds of carboniferous scunge on the intake valves. If so, it's off to the dealer for an expensive carbon cleaning. Prepare your anus for that's a $2000 job.
    3: Run a bottle or two of lifter-free when you first get the car. This'll basically clean out the chain guide tensioners and the valvetrain to some degree. Dump the oil at your next oil change (It'll be blacker than Dimmu Borgir at this point, cheeky metal reference), do an oil flush with a cheaper 5W30, run it, dump it again, and then refill with the best goddamn oil you can get your hands on. In this case it's Penrite 5W30(40) Ten Tenths for me. Expensive oil change? You bet your sweet ass, but you can't take any chances with previous owners.

    If you want mods? The Ecotec is a much better option. Factory supercharged engine availability? Yep. Easy to fix? You bet your bottom dollar it's easy to fix. Tunability? Well, every man and his dog's built a mangtec skid car, so hell to the yes! Alloytecs are faster and lighter, but not as tunable. They're good if you want a modern, efficient (ish) engine that's got decent mid-range power. They work best with a manual behind them. As for the Ecotec? Auto or manual, it's all good. :D
     
  20. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    They DO have a shitload of issues with chains. Early models before chain design revision are pretty well guaranteed to have troubles, and for the later ones it's just luck of the draw.

    They're just a poor design. You need to rev them much harder to net the same result as the earlier ecotec. Any mass produced car that needs servicing at 5000km is a joke. They require over 6L of oil for every change, and fully synthetic oil at that. Incredibly inefficient in terms of repair costs (chains, spark plug changes, oil changes and pretty well any other repairs that may be required) due to their design.

    Holden REALLY dropped the ball with their decision to run the alloytec. Historically, the engine offerings in commodores were pretty well bulletproof, easy to service, repair and rebuild with little to no special knowledge or tools, AND parts were cheap and accessible. A big, heavy RWD car sold to Aussies who are notoriously hard on their vehicles (not to mention the climate and road conditions) was an incredibly poor move. Sure, 175, 190, 210kw power figures sound good, but torque figures and the rev range they're achieved at is a joke.
     

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