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Fuel injector failure

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by jono67, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. abuch47

    abuch47 Active Member

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    because the engine is most likely tuned for 91 octane as a failsafe and will not advance timing much if at all with a higher octane.

    it is possible its tuned for premium though and hence e10 is pretty much the same octane.
     
  2. Milo 6.0

    Milo 6.0 Active Member

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    My manual says use 91 or higher octane,use of 95 octane or above may give a small increase in performance and economy.
    They wouldn't say you may gain power if you use a higher octane fuel unless they already have it tuned for 95 or higher fuel.
    Its a bad comparison with what running good fuel can achieve (being a ford 6 cyl turbo)but when I got my g6e turbo it had been run on 91 all its life,wouldnt even turn the tyres if you nailed it(ecu pulled a heap of timing for the rubbish fuel,sensing spark knock),couple of tanks of 98 and running at its full potential,completely different animal....
     
  3. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    On 91 RON, the vehicle does produce less power as you say. How much less wasn't specified by Holden though i suspect the bulk of the loss would be in the upper rev range and thus would not impact daily driving.

    As for daily driving, especially in anal police states, 91 RON is more than adeqate and saves $15 a tank. To put it another way, the yearly savings from using 91 RON could pay the yearly vehicle insurance.

    To put another way, not everyone buys a V8 to mod for maximum HP and not everyone aims to squeeze every KW out of their engine via maximising fuel RON. Some are content with what the factory tune provides, maybe through ignorance but most likely through choice. For such people, using 91 RON is a no brainer as it causes no problems (with injectors or otherwise) and the go peddle still works ;)

    So what's not to believe or understand; people are diverse :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  4. abuch47

    abuch47 Active Member

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  5. Milo 6.0

    Milo 6.0 Active Member

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    .
    As for timing not effecting low rpm driving,igniton timing being retarded effects low rpm driving and throttle response as well,when timing is pulled it effects the whole rev range,thats a fact not my opinion.
    Tight fisted people will always fight and say 91 is fine yet spend a fortune on an awesome performance vehicle which doesn't live up to its performance potential,why even bother?
    Ive got an awesome 304 kw car that makes about 290kw or less because I run **** fuel in it lol
    But its ok cos I cant even tell the difference....
    If you are happy to spend a fortune on a car and run rubbish fuel in it and make less power ,good for you:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  6. Milo 6.0

    Milo 6.0 Active Member

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    In that rationalisation then why don't you just get your car tuned for 91?
    Its a tale as old as time,there will always be those that say 98 is a waste of money and there will always be people like me who make more power running 98:)
     
  7. Mayuri Krab

    Mayuri Krab Member

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    $350 just for diagonse? Wtf...

    You can get the same OE injectors from USA for the Chevy SS at something like $50 USD each.
     
  8. abuch47

    abuch47 Active Member

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    Because the higher octane will allow for more timing advance without knock. stock its worthless, tuned is a different story and I am contemplating flex fuel for about $500-800 just to get that bit more performance.

    91 is not rubbish fuel, nor is 98 amazing fuel it is the same and comes from the same barrel just refined further and hence more cost.
     
  9. jono67

    jono67 Active Member

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    Rod, It might be worth contacting Holden Customer Care to see if anything can be done. Most of (if not all) the fuel injector issues here are related to the VF's, and most are getting all injectors replaced at no cost.

    Not sure how you'd get on with a 2009 VE that's done 145k km, but worth a shot. As Skylarking mentioned on pages 1 or 2 of this thread in response to my initial questions, the injectors should last the life of the car. I cannot believe they slugged you twice at $350 a pop to diagnose. It would be worth ringing Holden Customer Care regarding that alone, a typical dealer blatant rip off.
     
  10. Mayuri Krab

    Mayuri Krab Member

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    As for using 91 vs 95 vs 98 on (a stock) V8 car, I use 95 not for the potential (marginal) power bump, but for the 3x lower sulfur content.

    I read somewhere that 91 has a maximum sulfur content of 150ppm vs 50ppm for 95/98 and is one of the reasons why many Euro cars (even basic ~70killerwasps shopping trolley models) states to use minimal 95 fuel (95 is the lowest you get in central Europe but also their version has much lower sulfur again).

    Even though the car is designed here to work with our (below average) fuel, I still think (very long) extended high sulfur content can't be good for the engine system.

    Kinda like how people recommands servicing the car sooner than the default 15000km or chuck a fluid change before the default 100k+ km for the transmission and diff.
     
  11. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    I never mention anything about timing, nor questioned any facts you presented. I just said "i suspect the bulk of the loss would be in the upper rev range and thus would not impact daily driving" (w.r.t. using 91 RON as compared to 98 RON).

    It seems you missed that main point i was trying to make which was to answer your comment "Cant believe some people run 91 in their v8s". In case you missed the answer, it was "what's not to believe or understand; people are diverse". The rest of my post was a background to aid in your understanding of another viewpoint (which i thought would be apparent to most). So i've updated my post with bold italics which should now make it easier for you to comprehend.

    So maybe you should spend less effort being derogatory as it would serve the forum better. After all, i never stated what fuel i use, just some examples as to why some may use 91RON. Slinging terms like tight fisted was uncalled for regardless of the fuel i actually use.
     
  12. Harli

    Harli Member

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    A bit more reason to try and stick to 95-98 vs 91:

    https://www.caradvice.com.au/788798...rom-the-debate-about-australian-fuel-quality/

    Note the sulphur content which is the centre point of the article, also mentioned in comment #250 above. Holden recommends premium fuel for the LS3, it can work with 91 but that doesn't mean you should always use it. I remember reading that the 91 option is there in case you are driving through a country town or remote area that may only have 91. But in general you should be using premium.
     
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  13. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    I asked Holden Customer Care for more detail about different RON fuel usage, power output, etc. They checked and then got back to me pointing me back to their sales brochure and owners manual. However, HCC did state that use of 91 RON is OK and will not cause any damage. So, in theory no need to worry about high sulfer content fuel causing issues in our VF LS3 Euro 5 capable engines. In theory :rolleyes:

    As i've understood it, high sulfer content fuels are more of an issue with Euro 6 capable engines. Problems caused by high sulfer content fuels in Euro 6 engines seem related to oil contamination issues, 3 way catalytic converter damage and obviously higher pollution resulting in poorer air quality and acid rain. The first issue is solved by a shorter oil change interval as appropriate for our fuel. The last point is irrelevant to most who own a tuned guzzling V8 (but i applaud Mayuri Krab if his use of 95 is based on environmental concerns). This leaves potential catalytic converter damage as a concern.

    Euro 6 engines require 10ppm low sulfer content fuels to avoid issues. Some in our oil industry say there is no real community benefit going to low sulfer content fuels down under. They state Euro 6 engines can indeed run safely on 50ppm sulfer content fuels (95/98 RON).

    Oddly, our VF 6.2 ltr LS3's also run 3 way catalytic converters just like the Euro 6 engines. So, if one issue is high sulfer content causing catalytic converter damage in Euro 6 vehicles (3 way cat), then why does HCC say 91 RON is safe in our VF's? Is it becasue catalytic converter degradation rates when using either 150ppm or 50ppm sulfer contect fuel are similar OR is it becasue the industry seems to be aiming for a catalytic converter service life of 160,000kms? Me, i'm unfussed as i've got lots of warranty left ;) and if the catalytic converter fail post warranty, well that may be time for a tune which will fix the issue ;)

    Reality is it's a bit of a mess as 50ppm sulfer in 95/98 RON may not be the saviour some think. We may soon have a little daja vu as history repeates the unleaded fuel swicth of long ago o_O
     
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  14. KLoNe

    KLoNe Member

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    Happened to my 2015 Calais V the other day. Service ESP, limp mode etc.

    Took it into Holden stealership this morning and they are going to 'swap out the injector that's misfiring' and 'clean-up the others to try and prevent it happening again' and luckily for me only for the LOW LOW price of $615!

    Me: "This is a known problem and Holden are replacing all 8 injectors with no out-of-cost."
    Customer Service Officer: "There are definitely No Recalls and Zero Bulletins out for this vehicle and it is out of warranty so there is nothing we can do."
    Me: "The information I've received is that there definitely IS a bulletin out for this fault as the original part used by Holden has been designed faulty and every single LS3 using them will end up with this same fault in the future. Please contact Holden head office and find out if this is indeed the case."
    Customer Service Officer: "No problem, I'll see what we can do."

    literally 60 seconds later

    Customer Service Officer: "Hi, the good news is that there is a Bulletin submitted by Holden to have all 8 injectors replaced at no cost to the customer."...

    ~_~

    -------

    So they're holding my car hostage until Holden gets back to them and OK's the 'good will gesture' like everyone else here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
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  15. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    Anyone have a copy of that bulletin ?
     
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  16. KLoNe

    KLoNe Member

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    Got the Calais-V back this morning after Holden holding it hostage for an extra 4 days :mad:

    ZERO dollars out of pocket as it should be.

    Runs like a V8 again :D

    Made sure they didn't give it a 'complimentary car wash' with their steel wool brushes ;)
     
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  17. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, in two minds over this view. It’s ok for a dealer to work on your brakes but they can’t wash the car?

    Almost always my car is clean when it goes in for service, so I ask them not to wash it (no need). And I walk around the car with the service guy while videoing the body condition inside and out, just to highlight the fact it’s in perfect condition. Then when picking up, I go over what they’ve done during service and repeat the walk around to check.

    If they’ve scratch something, they’ll be paying for corrective action as things are documented.

    Maybe the truth is some dealers are incompetent on many fronts :oops: while others are ok :rolleyes: as I said two minds :p
     
  18. Holden17

    Holden17 Well-Known Member

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    Both our cars have ceramic coatings and I shudder at the thought of anyone less fussy than me putting any sort of wash cloth/sponge or whatever near the paintwork. When booking in I get them to write “Do NOT wash” on the paperwork and then I leave my own A4 sign on the dashboard...the reaction is always a comment or nod of understanding.

    Although not always convenient, I do my damnest to ensure I have washed it the day or two before so they can see I don’t want/need it washed by them...it would then also be obvious if they did wash it because I can guarantee it would be nowhere near as clean as when I dropped it off.

    So far Holden haven’t let me down...unlike the dumb as...at BMW who washed my son’s black mini and left it in a mess despite him taking the same precautions.
     
  19. Anthony121

    Anthony121 Well-Known Member

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    Which dealer allows you to do that in Melbourne?
     
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  20. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    ^ haha, I’ve never stated where I live ;)

    In any case, I don’t need a dealers permission to do a walk around of my vehicle before handing it to them for service. Any dealer that wants my business and has faith in their workforce simply won’t object. With those that do object, I go elsewhere, but that’s never happened :)
     
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