Just Commodores Forum Community

It takes just a moment to join our fantastic community

Register

Fuel issue on steep decline driveway?

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by snortings, Nov 22, 2018.

  1. RiCeY

    RiCeY F O R U M W A R R I O R

    Messages:
    4,126
    Likes Received:
    436
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Location:
    Australia
    Members Ride:
    VZ SV8 6spd 6.0 470rwhp
    Does sound like a fuel pressure issue on startup. Would need a gauge on the fuel system when it faults to confirm.

    Even on a steep angle the oil pickup would be submerged.
    Timing chains don't slip, the cam actuators can rattle on startup while building oil pressure but shouldn't affect starting.

    Has it had a fuel pump replaced yet?
     
    Lex likes this.
  2. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    I will do this on Monday.

    Yep a loan car would certainly be good, that way I can just leave it at the dealership whilst they try and fix it.

    I wouldn't have a clue, maybe the previous owner did I'm not sure sorry.

    Nah they definitely have been, they showed me where they parked it and I drive past the dealership everyday and I see it's still on the decline.

    Yes...

    Would be a little hard to prove, but the guy's driveway was flat (the previous owner) so not sure if he had the issue or not.

    Majority of the time it is remote start, but the video I posted with the illustration of my driveway was first with remote start but then I moved into the car to turn it on with the key and it still did it regardless. I normally always remote start my car, but I'd be willing to bet that it would also do it with the key. Now that I think about it, I know it still does it with the key.

    Well we've thought about that, but we haven't really asked. I'm not sure if they would honestly. The family friend has been to our house before and knows how steep our driveway is, so he has some knowledge about it.

    I thought it was strange that they recommended I do this.

    The first time I got charged for labor (to add the oil), but every time I've dropped the car off at the dealership they haven't charged me a dollar. I think if I wanted them to have a more extensive look, they'd start charging. That is another thing I forgot to mention, the guy did say it could be the o-ring. But then if I wanted them to check that I'd have to pay.

    Not sure if the fuel pump has been replaced previously, but nothing has been replaced in this fault finding process. I'd still think that if they wanted to put a guage on the car they'd charge me.
     
  3. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Location:
    Downunder
    Members Ride:
    Commodore Motorsport
    Ok but have you told them what angle your car it at when parked down your driveway and did they replicate this angle at the dealers lot?
    Off thread but how can you be sure that your driveway is built to Aussie standard, considering it is so steep, unless you actually checked what is built against what the standard specifies? I’ve seen many non spec driveways goats would have trouble with. You can’t simply trust the because a builder did it, it is done correctly. If you’ve paid attention to the Opel tower issue in Sydney and the Neo200 building cladding fire in Melbourne you should suspect that if high rise builders are shoddy, home builders would likely be worse. In any case, your driveway, at 8 or 40 degrees is what it is.
    OK, so far it’s been a freebie (though you have been stung for a new battery and oil top up).

    Sometimes freebies could explain, in part, the lack of progress in solving the problem.

    If price is a concern, then you should discuss this with the dealer and see if they can check their concerns without disassembly. But this presumes any low oil or fuel pressure issues which could be contributing to the start problem are viewable via the dealer diagnostics system even if the actual start problem is not observed at a given time. intermittent fuel issues can be due to intermittan5 electrical connection while intermittent oil pressure seems less likely unless there is a sticking relief valve (mechanical issue). I’d have thought with would result in hard or pending fault codes.

    But it seems when your car was connected to the dealer diagnostics system early in the process, and hard or pending fault codes were checked, only low voltage issues were seen and no low oil or fuel pressures seen during start.

    Sadly, the new battery and oil top up did nothing to resolve your issue.

    So if they can’t diagnose without disassembly, and you are concerned you’d be paying to have things pulled apart with no fault found, discuss this with the dealer. Then if your unhappy with the dealers response discuss it with HCC.

    But it really seems that some money needs to be spend up front to hammer this problem, either your $ or HCC $... The dealer needs to have some freedom to do their job and it seems you may be hamstringing them in some ways.

    As a final thought, if the previous owner was the first owner, I’d be asking who their insurance company was and whether the car was repaired after a crash, reason being that this may point to a crash related intermittent electrical issue that was not fixed by the repairer/insurance company. Some insurance companies have lifetime repair guarantee but I doubt it’s transferable to the next owner but it could be something to consider discussing with that insurance company. If such was the case and insurance company doesn’t want a bar of you, just like Riddick, you need to consider whether to “convert” or “fight” :eek:
     
  4. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    @Skylarking, I will be ringing them (HCC) tomorrow. I'll let you know the outcome :)
     
    Skylarking likes this.
  5. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    @Skylarking

    Right, after about an hour and a half on the phone seems like we will be getting somewhere. Explained all the issues to the guy on the phone and he took them all down and asked what outcome I'd like, to which I just said to be fixed lol (he laughed and said "yeah I'd hope so").

    Long story short, he then put me on hold and rang the dealership and said that it needs to become more in-depth in finding the issue. So now the service manager is going to come around to my house in the mornings to witness it for himself. Not sure what he's going to do from there as it will sound the exact same as the videos... I'm about 2kms from the dealer so it's not like he's really going out of his way.

    The guy was pretty understanding on the phone and seemed great, wouldn't be surprised if the dealership has the sh!ts with me now. Hopefully this gets resolved soon enough. After I finished on the phone with the dealership I was hoping I'd be put back through to customer care but when the dealer hung up it ended the whole call. I still wanted to ask customer care how they wanted to see the videos and say that from ACL interpretation that a minor fault becomes a major fault if it can't be remedied in 3 attempts.
     
    VS 5.0 likes this.
  6. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    Just got a call back from the local dealership and they think the rattling noise is, and I quote, "100% the timing chain". They're still unsure of what the starting cranking issue might be, but they seemed 100% certain that it is the timing chain. How much do these normally go for? Not cheap I bet...

    They said in regards to the engine cranking, they'll do a fuel pressure test as the first step. Apparently it doesn't matter where they do it (as I suggested it be done on my driveway).
     
  7. RiCeY

    RiCeY F O R U M W A R R I O R

    Messages:
    4,126
    Likes Received:
    436
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Location:
    Australia
    Members Ride:
    VZ SV8 6spd 6.0 470rwhp
    It needs to be done when the car is faulting or it's pointless, it's clearly an intermittent issue that can't be replicated at the dealership.

    If they are so confident it's the chains say do the chains, if it doesn't fix it I'm not paying a cent.
     
    Skylarking likes this.
  8. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Location:
    Downunder
    Members Ride:
    Commodore Motorsport
    Some VE V6’s had an issue with stretched timing chains so Holden released updated ECU code to better manage the stretch before it threw any fault codes. Such a solution simply sidesteps the problem as the chain is desires to be an still elastic band. Obviously the underlying issue with the chain itself must have been fixed in later builds so VF shouldn’t have an issue.

    But from your VF V6 perspective, with correct scheduled servicing, one’s timing chain should last the life of the engine (which this NZ VE timing chain article equates to 300,000kms). It’s not listed as a specific serviceable item by Holden so it should need not replaced unless something is buggered (which shouldn’t occur if the service is done according to Holdens schedule).

    So, if you have proof of correct servicing (by date and km) and if it is indeed the timing chain, don’t let them convince you it’s simply worn out at 113,000kms and you need to pay - it should be covered by Holden a cording to ACL.

    If the car hasn’t been correctly serviced and the oil hasn’t been changed at the interval specified by Holden, then Holden can say the failure is due to lack of maintenance and it may cost a bucket of money :oops:

    So, if you don’t have the service paperwork, find out if the previous owner does or if he can direct you to where you can get copies (a Holden dealer or 3rd party shop). It’s better to have your own proof rather than just rely on what a dealer or Holden may say. Obviously Holden can’t know if some owner did an ultratune book service. Such services won’t be reflected on Holden’s system AND Holden may conclude it wasn’t serviced correctly. But in such cases it was serviced correctly via ultratune and thus Holden can’t use lack of service as an excuse to deny warranty. Keep this in mind and get your service report ducks in a row.

    If they try and deny warranty when you have proof of correct servicing, let them continue to put the noose around their neck and ask them to provide a written quote for the job with wording as to why you have to pay. If they are stupid enough to do this and state lack of servicing, they have walked off the cliff as Holden’s made and undertaking to ACCC which requires them and their dealers not to do crap like this ;)

    So, since they are adamant that the noise is caused by the timing chain, sort out the service situation and get the chain fixed hopefully under statutory warranty. Fixing the timing chain should resolve some starting issues as poor valve timing doesn’t help starts.

    Having said all that, I think if the timing change had an issue, you’d get more noise and DTC fault codes popping up. But that doesn’t seem the case from what’s been said previously. So back to fuel pressure, oil suction side o-ring leak, etc, being a potential cause of your hard start issues and all this sudden timing chain talk may simply be a side issue to get Holden off the back.

    As for HCC, keep in mind that they have a reputation for being nice and promising to call back but often fail to do such. Ring back and get a commitment that Holden is going to support you with loan car and goodwill repairs for the start issue and now the timing chain issue that the dealer just raised.
     
  9. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    So both the service manager and family friend came around this morning, got a little more info for you guys. This morning when I started it up the car did the rattle issue instead of the cranking one, I wish they saw the cranking one. I left it on the driveway for about 5 hours after they left, when I just hopped in it before it had trouble starting.

    I mentioned this to them, the service manager agrees that it would be pointless to do unless it was done at the time it was faulting. Though he said they will still do a fuel pressure test on flat ground, just to see if it is within normal operation. I said to him I have primed the fuel pump/lines by turning the key to on and off 5 times (keeping it left on 'on' for 5 seconds). He said well yeah the fuel lines should be pressurised so that stumped them both.

    They said before Holden can come to the party for a goodwill they first need to diagnose it before they can take the case to them with their findings. They said I'll have to pay a little first up for the diagnosis, but stated if it is the timing chain (they're going to pull the front case off and look) they will bring it up to Holden and ask if they can cover the cost. He asked what the service history was like, to which the family friend vouched and said that all of it's servicing has been done by the log book and at the Holden Dealership at the correct intervals (by the book at least) as he remembers looking at the service logbook. So if it is the timing chain, they'll say that the car has only done 115,000 kms and has perfect service history so such a fault shouldn't occur. He said they're normally good at paying for it, but wouldn't be surprised if they won't. If they do come to the party, I'll be refunded the whole lot (including diagnosis).

    Yep this is what the service manager said, normally HCC will just pass it onto the dealer and then go 'dead'. He said the only reason they would come 'alive' (in terms of pursuing the case) is if I wasn't happy with something done and contacted them.

    ------------
    So long story short, they're going to find out when they can book the car in and look at the chains by taking the case off. They said it might take about 3 hours work or something, not sure what that was about as they said so many things to me. Apparently to take the sump off and replace the o-ring they have to take the front off (suspension etc apparently) and keep it hanging on by a bolt, then slide the sump out. Though they'll only do this (o-ring) if the timing chains aren't a problem. I did question if it was the timing chains why isn't it happening every time, to which they honestly said they don't know and that's what they find strange.

    They did say that the timing kits used to be around $2400 supplied and fitted, but apparently they have come down in price to around $800? @RiCeY can you confirm that?
     
  10. RiCeY

    RiCeY F O R U M W A R R I O R

    Messages:
    4,126
    Likes Received:
    436
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Location:
    Australia
    Members Ride:
    VZ SV8 6spd 6.0 470rwhp
    To access the oil pickup to change O ring only sump has to come off from memory. If the O ring wasn't sealing there would be low oil pressure all the time at idle from experience. I'm sure the rattle will be the cam actuators at the front of the engine, not the chains.

    Front cover will be an overnight job as it's sealant not a gasket which has to cure overnight before putting oil back in.

    No idea on pricing I don't deal with that part of the job :D
     
  11. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    Well they've had the car since Monday and I've said they can have it until Friday. They wanted to have the noise happen infront of the mechanic that will be replacing the timing chain to make sure he's 100% certain that they are going in with cause.

    So far it's been 3 days and the car hasn't moved, which makes me think the problem (as per usual) isn't happening for them. Hopefully if it doesn't happen on the friday they'll come back around or something. If nothing happens I'll be going back to Holden Customer Care.

    @Skylarking you were right, they haven't contacted me at all (HCC) regarding this any further haha.
     
  12. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    Bit of an update @Skylarking.

    Long story short the dealership has gotten "Holden Technicians" involved in diagnosing in which they have instructed the dealership to put an oil pressure gauge under the bonnet and for me to record it each and every time I turn the car on. They said minimum psi when idling should be 10psi and I forgot what they said the max psi should be.

    In the 5 days it was down at the dealership it didn't do it once, but what do you know the day I bring it back home it does it. They said they were looking to see if the needle fluctuates up and down on my driveway, which it does. He was telling me what it meant if it was fluctuating but there was loud noises behind me and I couldn't quite catch what he said. @RiCeY, you wouldn't know what he might've said it means do you? Thought you might :D

    Idling it was about 90psi on my driveway... seems a bit high (cold start). Then it settled down to about 60psi after it warmed up, seemed high.
     
  13. RiCeY

    RiCeY F O R U M W A R R I O R

    Messages:
    4,126
    Likes Received:
    436
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Location:
    Australia
    Members Ride:
    VZ SV8 6spd 6.0 470rwhp
    Only info I can find is min pressure at idle 10psi, at 2000rpm 20psi. Doesn't say what max pressures should be.
     
  14. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Location:
    Downunder
    Members Ride:
    Commodore Motorsport
    Hm, if a patient has some serious issue and doctors don’t know what’s going on they often do exploratory surgery to find out.

    Holden should just authorise some exploratory checks like sump and timing chain cover removal so parts can be visually inspected. Doing such should make it possible to check the oil intake o-rings and oil pressure regulator/bypass for leaks or sticking while timing chain and tensioners could also be checked for stretch and sticking tensioner (plunger).

    It just seems to me that continuing to drive (when the dealer thinks it’s timing chains, etc, in the hope that this already recorded intermittent issue can be captured or made permanent) increases the risks of something breaking.

    And if it’s so difficult a problem, maybe Holden should simply install a new engine and take the old one away for a full stripdown and analysis as they may learn about a fault in their design that they didn’t know about previously. But I doubt continuous improvement is a philosophy of Holden.

    It just seems wrong to stuff around an owner in such a way when it’s obvious there is something wrong.
     
  15. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    So after a lengthy process, they've finally put it down to the timing chain on bank 1 (driver side) and possibly the cam phaser.

    They're going to pull it apart next thursday, take photos and send it off to Holden and hope that they will cover it. I sure hope they do considering this issue started happening only 7 months out of warranty and the last VFs were sold with 7 years warranty...

    If they won't cover it, I'm up for $2300. $2100 being the timing kit and $200 for the cam phaser.
     
  16. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Location:
    Downunder
    Members Ride:
    Commodore Motorsport
    Holden should cover it since the timing chains and phasers should last the life of the engine when maintained according to Holdens service schedule. This should especially be the case as the problem occured only 7 months after the manufactures warranty expired.

    So, as long as it has been maintained according to the schedule, which is the case as I’ve understood, I’d push hard for Holden to stand by the quality of their product and cover the cost of all timing chains (primary and secondarys) and phasers for (both banks).

    If Holden doesn’t cover this, maybe ACA could be interested in a segment about Holden’s lack of standing by their products.
     
  17. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    God I sure hope that they will cover it, you've made some good points. Might use some of those :)

    If the dealership comes back and says that Holden said they're not going to pay for it, I'll ring Customer Care myself and give it a go.
     
  18. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Location:
    Downunder
    Members Ride:
    Commodore Motorsport
    If the worst occurs, best arrange to drop by the dealer and have them place a conference call to their Holden contact who decided it wasn’t worthy of Holden warranty coverage or good will. Then you can discuss it together as a group and get it resolved to your benefit (Holden should carry the full repair costs, no go halves or such).

    If Holden don’t seem to care much about supporting their product, i’d shift the discussion to the difficulty in diagnosis the issue and the fact the problem first occured late 2018 (November?) when the vehicle was just out of warranty (can’t remember by how much?). Don’t let Holden use the last four or five months as counting as being part of the out of warranty period for some part that should last the life of the engine. Be prepared to push back politely and stand your ground.

    Hopefully such discussions won’t be necessary as Holden should see that supporting their product and their customer as being the best option.

    As for HCC, my experiance is that they act as walls or sounding boards and simply stop you getting through to the decision makers while hearing your complaints and they tend promise but never to call back. I don’t know about you but I hate talking to such people with little to no authority to actually decide such things. If someone else needs to decide, I want to be talking to them directly but HCC processes don’t allow it (which should say all about the organisation). If the dealer can help you bypass the HCC roadblock, that would be preferred to waiting for a HCC callback o_O
     
  19. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    Yeah good points, I doubt they'd set up a conference call :p Probably too busy, that's what they'd say anyway.

    It is being dropped off to the dealership today and it'll start tomorrow, they gotta take photos and send it away to Holden. When I am down at the dealership today, I'll be asking the service manager what he is going to put forward to Holden as I remember he said that it shouldn't of gone because of the service history and it only being 3 year old.

    I'll let you know how it all goes next week :)
     
    Skylarking likes this.
  20. snortings

    snortings Active Member

    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Queensland
    Members Ride:
    MY15 SV6
    Well we finally received word back from Holden @Skylarking, of which they said that they will be paying for all costs! Glad that I'm not outlying $2300 for something that shouldn't of happened in the first place.

    Hopefully this will fix all issues, seeing as though the rattle and the starting issue never happened together... Time will tell.

    Thanks so much for assisting me in getting this resolved, you and others have just saved me $2,300 :D
     
    VS 5.0, revster and Skylarking like this.

Share This Page