Having a battle with Holden due lifters

[stooge]

Makes me wonder though, regardless of any Holden warranty. Surely under ACL you could argue “reasonable Expectation” that lifters will not fail on a new engine. It’s not like it had bad oil or no oil in it?

under normal circumstances yes but because there has been a substantial amount of time/km since the recorded services they will say that the lack of proper lubrication caused the lifters to fail prematurely so it throws out the reasonable expectation argument.

your warranty is still fine for the rest of the vehicle but anything that you try to claim on the engine that would rely on the oil change will be a hard one to win because they will always default back to the missed servicing being the cause.

now if you did happen to know a qualified mechanic that could provide an invoice for the missed service within the correct km/dates then it would be a different story because you do not have to get it serviced with holden to retain the warranty but it has to be serviced properly by a qualified mechanic with the specified items listed in the service book for the specified service interval.

 

[Skylarking]

@Elwood, if you bought the oil and filter on your credit card and changed the oil yourself, the credit card is proof of purchase and logic dictates if you bought the oil and filter, you changed the oil soon after... that may be enough to sway the tribunal in your favour.

Also, Holden itself gives 3,000 km leeway so a once off extra 5,000 km on top isn't catastrophic thing for a modern synthetic oil (considering the safety factor the manufacture builds in to their sercive schedule)... To put it bluntly, Holden are again back to being typical arsehats and that's what got them in a position of having to make a court enforcable undertaking not be be pricks to their customers.

Sadly, as they move to shutting shop, i doubt they give a toss about ACCC so they simply don't give a corporate **** any more...

PS: sometimes being OCD and keeping fuel receipts (while writing oddometer distance on said receipts) along with keeping all other receipts for all spend on the car (for own oil and filter changes, etc) can come in rather handy when just this sort of thing or even fuel contamination occurs... It takes bugger all effort to do... Guess it's just like HDD backups, something most don't bother about until they've had a HDD die on them and their important files are all lost...

 

[stooge]

@Elwood, if you bought the oil and filter on your credit card and changed the oil yourself, the credit card is proof of purchase and logic dictates if you bought the oil and filter, you changed the oil soon after... that may be enough to sway the tribunal in your favour.

if he is not qualified mechanic it would work in his favor to not say he changed it himself because saying he did change it opens up another avenue in holdens favor which is "he did not do the change correctly and he caused the damage".
while it is a good idea for the receipts for the oil and filter in Elwoods case they only prove they were "purchased" but they dont prove when they were installed or that they were not for another vehicle.

it is always best to do the proper servicing on time and keep all of those receipts as evidence for the first 7 years of a new car to cover warranty and a possible consumer law claim.
after 7 years do what ever makes you happy

 

[Skylarking]

under normal circumstances yes but because there has been a substantial amount of time/km since the recorded services they will say that the lack of proper lubrication caused the lifters to fail prematurely so it throws out the reasonable expectation argument.

your warranty is still fine for the rest of the vehicle but anything that you try to claim on the engine that would rely on the oil change will be a hard one to win because they will always default back to the missed servicing being the cause....

That's just the thing... it did have proper lubrication due to self sevice of oil and filter (though we dont know exactly when)... In any case oil simply doesn't die at 1km past due date... it's not milk...

The real issue is whether there is any proof that can be furnished that the oil was indeed changed within the required intervals +/-. But even an internal engine inspection would clarify whether poor oil serviceing was indeed a contributing factor. Holden simply don;t want to play ball and are hopeing a few No's will drive the owner away.

Engines shouldn't be and arn't that fragile. ACL requires products are of acceptable quality and durable. And though servicing is required, the manufacturer can't take such a hardline stance in all cases or in a small claims court, especially when the owner may have proof of self service that may be acceptable to the judge.

As is, LS3's are known to have issues with injectors, rockers, lifters, pushrods and piston slap just to name some... acceptable quality? durable? hardly... Such may not be known to all buyers who simply want a V8 andthrow down the cash. But they soon find out these things post purchase.

It's not as if Holden is coming from a place of "clean hands" considering the ACCC undertaking, or from a place of real strength given these LS3 shortcomings... Shouldn't say it's over till the fat lady sings

 

[stooge]

That's just the thing... it did have proper lubrication due to self sevice of oil and filter (though we dont know exactly when)... In any case oil simply doesn't die at 1km past due date... it's not milk...

it does not matter, "common sense" has no place when dealing with the accc or a tribunal, they will see that it missed it and holdens techs will say that was the cause.
most of the people on these tribunals have no mechanical knowledge so they only know what the experts tell them and in this case the vehicle was driven for 8000km more than it should have been and holden will crap on about oils and the engine design for a specific oil life etc etc and the tribunal will rule in holdens favor because they have evidence of poor maintenance.
the history of engines sludging blocking the flow of oil because of missed changes will be the bang stick for any previous ls3 lifter issue argument.

if elwood took it to court without proof of the service there is a very high chance he will lose and end up paying 5~10 times the replacement cost he was quoted


he should at least contact holden customer care and see if they will do something because you never know he might get someone that has common sense and they see that 8000km would not cause it.

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[Skylarking]

if he is not qualified mechanic it would work in his favor to not say he changed it himself because saying he did change it opens up another avenue in holdens favor which is "he did not do the change correctly and he caused the damage"....

All that the regulators say is that not servicing to the manufactures schedule may void warranty... Nowhere have i read it will void warranty... So it's never a given.

On the owner self service issue, been trying to find info on this very aspect but nothing as yet. Haven't found anything on ACL case where someone did own services being bad or good... nada... All one can say is that the owner is not an expert as accepted by the courts so can't easily testify to how/why something failed...

But that doesn't mean the owner is completely unskilled and can't change oil... An owner could testify what they did, how they did it and where they got their technical info from (for oil rating and viscosity, oil volume, sump plug torue setting, why filling filter with oil befor screwing it onto engine, even how to check oil level on dip stick, etc)...

It's something to talk to a consumer group about in any case...

 

[Skylarking]

it does not matter, "common sense" has no place when dealing with the accc or a tribunal, they will see that it missed it and holdens techs will say that was the cause.
most of the people on these tribunals have no mechanical knowledge so they only know what the experts tell them and in this case the vehicle was driven for 8000km more than it should have been and holden will crap on about oils and the engine design for a specific oil life etc etc and the tribunal will rule in holdens favor because they have evidence of poor maintenance.
the history of engines sludging blocking the flow of oil because of missed changes will be the bang stick for any previous ls3 lifter issue argument.

if elwood took it to court without proof of the service there is a very high chance he will lose and end up paying 5~10 times the replacement cost he was quoted

Common sense can go a long way in small claims, they are less formal that a county court for example... And a sworn statement that one changed the oil themselves can't be simply dismissed when proof of oil and filter purchase is provided...

If one needs an expert to counter Holdens technical arguments as tio what was the casue of the fauilure, you get an expert (if it aint cost prohibitive obviuosly).

As to sludging, we don't even know if thats the case with his engine... We think Elwood changed the oil and filter on time? but seems he did it himself. We know Holden saw he missed a service so denied the claim outright... doubt they did much investigation other than looking at their documented service history...

So lets not assume it's all done and dusted and Elwood is screwed... There may still be scope for sorting his out...

Oh, and other that your expert whitness costs, small claims isn't expensive and normally they don't award costs (other thna in egregious situations like petrol company saying that no one got contamionated fuel and ignoring a claimants fuel analysis - those costs and the expert whitnes costs were awarded in such a NSW fuel contamination case becasue the judge formed the view that the petrol company should have settle before such costs were incured)...

 

[vc commodore]

All that the regulators say is that not servicing to the manufactures schedule may void warranty... Nowhere have i read it will void warranty... So it's never a given.

On the owner self service issue, been trying to find info on this very aspect but nothing as yet. Haven't found anything on ACL case where someone did own services being bad or good... nada... All one can say is that the owner is not an expert as accepted by the courts so can't easily testify to how/why something failed...

But that doesn't mean the owner is completely unskilled and can't change oil... An owner could testify what they did, how they did it and where they got their technical info from (for oil rating and viscosity, oil volume, sump plug torue setting, why filling filter with oil befor screwing it onto engine, even how to check oil level on dip stick, etc)...

It's something to talk to a consumer group about in any case...

Holden will argue, missing the scheduled service has caused the problem...They also require services being done by qualified mechanics..

A receipt for oil filters and what ever else only proves you bought it...It doesn't prove it was installed in the specific car

So harp on about courts, the acccc and who ever else all you like, unfortunately the length of time and kays that elapsed would be enough to give them the out that they need and an excellent chance of succeeding.

If the OP was to take it to the courts, there is a great possiblity they will loose and be slugged all the court costs as well.

Best thing is to help find a decent qualified mechanic that can help him out to fix the problem

 

[Elwood]

it does not matter, "common sense" has no place when dealing with the accc or a tribunal, they will see that it missed it and holdens techs will say that was the cause.
most of the people on these tribunals have no mechanical knowledge so they only know what the experts tell them and in this case the vehicle was driven for 8000km more than it should have been and holden will crap on about oils and the engine design for a specific oil life etc etc and the tribunal will rule in holdens favor because they have evidence of poor maintenance.
the history of engines sludging blocking the flow of oil because of missed changes will be the bang stick for any previous ls3 lifter issue argument.

if elwood took it to court without proof of the service there is a very high chance he will lose and end up paying 5~10 times the replacement cost he was quoted


he should at least contact holden customer care and see if they will do something because you never know he might get someone that has common sense and they see that 8000km would not cause it.

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Ironically it’s Holden a customer Care causing the issues, the dealer I purchased the car from and get it serviced at hasn’t offered anything on their end other than perusing it with HCC. They however agree with me that the lifters shouldn’t have failed and I shouldn’t be paying.

That’s nice and all but doesn’t help my bank account haha.

Cheers everyone, really appreciate the ideas and info that’s been posted.

 

[vc commodore]

Common sense can go a long way in small claims, they are less formal that a county court for example...

If one needs an expert to counter Holdens arguments, you do that (if it aint cost prohibitive obviuosly).

As to sludging, we don't even know if thats the case with his engine... We know Elwood changed the oil and filter on time but seems he did it himself. We know Holden saw he missed a service so denied the claim outright... doubt they did much investigation other than looking at service history...

So lets not assume it's all done and dusted and Elwood is screwed... There may still be scope for sorting his out...

Oh, and other that your expert whitness costs, small claims isn't expensive and normally they don't award costs (other thna in egregious situations like petrol company saying that no one got contamionated fuel and ignoring a claimants fuel analysis - those costs and the expert whitnes costs were awarded in such a NSW fuel contamination case becasue the judge formed the view that the petrol company should have settle before such costs were incured)...

Having been through small claims court myself in S.A, I can tell you, the courts DO award out of pocket costs incurred by the person instigating the claims, if they win the case. All the courts ask for is receipts for the out of pocket expenses incurred in launching the claim and proving your case