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Holden heritage car sale

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by Ron Burgundy, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. Forg

    Forg Well-Known Member

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    Thailand?
    Mexico?
    South Africa?
    Belgium?

    The Australian public was chucking-in something like $2 for each $35k+ Commodore. Which was keeping tens of thousands of people employed in many many companies, plus keeping Australia’s ability to manufacture a large complicated mechanism alive.
     
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  2. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    This I feel is the critical bit from a national security perspective.

    As for auto industry by country...
     
  3. abuch47

    abuch47 Active Member

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    I was inferring the balance hasnt been right for a while. Business interests to secure a job after leaving office seem to be our past, present and future.
     
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  4. lmoengnr

    lmoengnr Well-Known Member

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    Problem is, when there's an election, we can only vote for politicians, not people who can actually get **** done...
     
  5. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Who the major shareholders are is virtually irrelevant. It's the inputs (including local purchases), throughouts (labour / material conversion, production, value add - jobs) and outputs (product, consumption, taxes, R&D, knowledge and the multiplying effect of every dollar of capital, directly and indirectly) that mattered. Not who received dividends twice a year. The view that the importance of big business is all about market capitalization and profit is a fallacy.
     
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  6. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Yes, exactly this ^
     
  7. Forg

    Forg Well-Known Member

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    Politicians can very much get things done, it’s because of the aforementioned voting that they so often choose not to! :)
     
  8. figjam

    figjam Donating Member

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    As this thread is seriously off topic, on a subject that has been done to death, here are some readily available figures that are easily found online, or in motoring publications.

    Government funding over the past 12 years (2001 to 2012): Holden: $2.17 billion Toyota: $1.2 billion Ford: $1.1 billion
    Annual average over the past 12 years (2001 to 2012): Holden: $180 million Toyota: $95.8 million Ford: $87.8 million
    Cars made locally in 2012: Holden: 85,000 Toyota: 101,500 Ford: 37,000
    Average taxpayer dollars per car built in 2012: Holden: $2117 Toyota: $944 Ford: $2372


    GM always owned Holden, nothing was owned by Australia.
    Profits (if any) were always returned to GM. Losses were also picked up by GM.
    GM bailed out Holden by $700M after the VL/Nissan engine financial failure.
    The future of Holden manufacturing was only ‘guaranteed’ until 2022, if Govt subsidies were received.

    The loss of any/all Australian manufacturing is the result of our Govt policies (blame all parties for that), foreign Govt policies, corporate greed, international trade, and the fact that we are seen as minor player in world affairs, and always has been.
    So there is no point blaming any one individual or occurrence. We are now stuck with the result of years of indifference, ‘she’ll be right, mate,’ inaction and short term planning.
    There is more political intrigue and big business manoeuvring in all this than can be put in Hollywood movie.
     
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  9. Forg

    Forg Well-Known Member

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    You could consider that companies exist only to make money, hence the label “corporate greed” is simply describing the basic underpinnings of a capitalist system. Hence, “corporate greed” is expected & even desired behaviour, and it’s up to governments to create/maintain the rules within which the by-definition greedy corporations must operate.
     
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  10. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    I'd suggest we are already there.

    And don't forget the dictating spewing out of a particular national "friend".
     
  11. HarryHoudini

    HarryHoudini Active Member

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    I might add Toyota and Button,as well as GM Detroit,bailed Holden out in the late 1980's.Journo's at the time speculated Toyota's interest was more to do with blocking Nissan gaining a bigger foothold in Oz.(as well as the VL Engine Holden had rebadged Nissan models). than any thought about Holden's future.The Oz. market was important for the Japs. back then as little modification was required on the RHD models sold in Japan.
    My Niece is a Journo. and i did a bit of research for her around the time Ford stopped all development on new Models(2011?) and was rumoured to be leaving Oz.
    Kim Carr begged Hockey & Abbott for a bi-partisan approach to keep Holden or Toyota manufacturing here,his 'Ball Park' figure was A$100m for a new model to be developed,but i guess that was PA. based on your figures.
    The Libs. made a backroom approach to Toyota after GM withdrawal but that was knocked back as well,Hockey/Abbott thought they had a fall back plan after GM called their bluff but were left with the mantle of destroying Aust. Car Industry as Toyota made a public annoucement they were ending production without even consulting the Govt.
     
  12. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    You're right when you explain corporate greed in those terms, but another factor comes into play when we discuss GM and Holden's demise as a manufacturer.
    For many years now, GM vehicles in each market sector have compared badly to their competitors. If you ignore the Commodore and Caprice, which imported Holdens were superior to their competition? Some were awful, particularly Epica, Viva, early Captiva, early Cruze and TK Barina. Absolutely none of those vehicles were anywhere near class leading and were all marketed on price. GM clearly believed they were good enough, when in fact most of them were seriously deficient in quality, assembly and engineering. GM's reputation for quality control has never been good, the Australian built vehicles were often considered to be GM's best built cars.
    The point I'm making is that "corporate greed" definitely contributed to Holden's fall by being forced to market seriously underwhelming cars when the opposition was supplying better and constantly improving vehicles in each market sector.
     
  13. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Clearly I misinterpreted your point. I still dont quite undertsand the distinction. But, I'll put that down to fatigue on my part. To be clear though, I wasn't putting any spin on it. I was simply asking a question, for clarity about the %'s you stated.
     
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  14. Forg

    Forg Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, definitely agree with that.
    In fact I'm trying to think of non-Commodores which did well in their market segment due to anything but being bargain-price discounted … the 90's Astras (which also had pretty terrible electrical problems), the XC Barina (that seems to have been a decent car), the Suzuki built Barina was good & did well. The Rodeo. Not much else!
     
  15. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    Yep, I'm much the same. During the 90's, the whole range of Holden passenger vehicles was strong. The Astra, Vectra and Barina all sold well and were good cars within their sectors. The rot started when exchange rates started to weaken our dollar and GM replaced each vehicle with rehashed Daewoos. Some of them weren't even new models. The Viva was a facelifted Lacetti, which hadn't sold well as a Daewoo, the Barina was a facelifted Lanos, another Daewo dog and only the Epica was a new, but equally forgettable model. None of them came close to matching the cars they replaced. Selling cars of such poor standards only undermined Holdens reputation. The Captiva sold well despite its poor early reputation. The later cars were much better but again the rot had set in. The Holden name was trashed and the Captiva, selling purely on value for money, lingered far too long and, by around 2015, its was hopelessly obsolete compared to the competition. The overall impression I have is that for many years now, most small GM cars worldwide have been also-rans. The current European Astra might be the exception.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  16. figjam

    figjam Donating Member

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    @426Cuda …. it appears that I was wrong (gasp, shock, horror) about my age related statistics.
    According to our Gubbermint Treasurer today…………….

    “Mr Frydenberg will tell the dinner crowd that workforce participation for over-65s was 14.6 per cent, up from six per cent 20 years ago.
    But he will say 80 per cent of education happens before Australians turn 21.
    "This will have to change if we want to continue to see more Australians stay engaged in work for longer," he will say.
    He will point to Australia's higher life expectancy, a growing national median age and the shrinking number of working-age Australians.

    Australians aged 65 or over represent 16 per cent of the population.”

    All very well for him to say that, but not all over 65s sit behind a computer, or carry a clip board with a list of things that other people should do.
    Some of us did physical work, sometimes in confined spaces, sometimes in hot conditions.
    After I turned 65, I told my employer to downgrade me from full-time, to part-time, to casual, to ‘give me ring’.
    The ‘give me ring’ work involved chauffeuring him to jobs so that he would not exceed his CASA prescribed fatigue hours. When I turned 70, he found that his workers compensation premium would increase due to an older, high risk employee. On a mutual basis agreement, I ceased work completely.
    Are you aware of those factors, Mr Frydenberg ?

    And as for, “ But he will say 80 per cent of education happens before Australians turn 21.”
    Really ?? I am probably wrong again, but I thought I was learning and being educated all my working life. I am still learning and being educated.
    Well may we say, God save the country, because nothing will save it from ourselves. (Sorry, Gough.)
     
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  17. figjam

    figjam Donating Member

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    We had a XC Barina from new, great little car which also had electrical problems that Holden couldn't sort, but the local mech could. It did well over 230Km as a 'hand me down' through the family, with neglected servicing and abuse after I wiped my hands of responsibility.
    Apparently Holden had a large finger in the pie during its planning, making aircon and auto available, which Europe didn't want as they saw no need for either. But this was in the days of Peter Hanenberger running Holden, not some American on a short term posting bent on cutting costs.
     
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  18. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    I expect he would well aware of the intent to increase the retirement age thereby delaying access to super or pension as the case may be.
     
  19. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    Figjam,
    You must have liked your job more than I did. After 38 years with one employer, having developed three separate age related physical complaints, I'd had enough and retired medically. I was only 56, well within the working age. My job was clerical and admin, so the physical demands were low but I never intended to work beyond 60. Saying that people can work beyond 65 also ignores the fact that after 40 to 50 years of work, most people feel they've paid their dues and are entitled to enjoy the rest of their lives. I don't know how others feel about this, but if you like your job, then stay but if, like me, you'd had a gutful, enough is enough.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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