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I wanna de-stroke a 3.8

Discussion in 'V6 Development And Modification' started by Dr Goggles, May 25, 2010.

  1. soop

    soop Banned

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    Would it not be easier to run an ecotec?

    For the simple fact that the main issue is taken care of as standard?
     
  2. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    It's a whole New Year

    sorry it took me a while to get started.....

    .

    Had a similar idea in mind , got some advice early that batch fire suits what we're trying to do just like mechanical injection, crap at anything other than WOT but great for that.

    We also have a fair bit of rubber in the lines which probably wouldn't help the "hammering"just like if a pipe can move in the hot water plumbing of a house...HOWEVER the cure for that is a shock absorbing section....but that won't help what we are trying to achieve/avoid....we need rock solid pulse free fuel pressure.




    Has just been seat of pants the last two years added to the finance issue, this year it's going on an engine dyno.We were under the impression that we wouldn't have had a chance using all the fuel the stock injectors could get into it...

    Continuing on from above we will get an adjustable FPR and a guage if things go as planned.

    they probably weren't at "brand new spec" either

    We have a Megasquirt , last time we were trying to get it sorted we had trouble with the stim unit and the Reverend hasn't been back on deck to sort it out since.


    Soop as usual is scrstching his head as to why we're scratching our heads.........

    Yes it would have been .

    Now.
     
  3. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    i actually believe that plenty of flexible line will aid in removing any fuel hammering. flexible lines will allow some movement (expand and contract) with the pulsing of the fuel etc
     
  4. soop

    soop Banned

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    Is after market control out of the question?
     
  5. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    As I mentioned earlier we've got a megasquirt but the Reverend never really got it sorted out, if money was just a concept rather than an object....we'd just have Motec..... in the end of course it would have been cheaper to get one when we started rather than break a heap of stuff and learn nothing about why.........but that's the way these things go...

    Just spent the day in the shed, dropped the floor off it and degreased and wire brushed all the rusty bits on the car and then gave them a sloppy coat of cold gal....it the surest way to keep it all relatively nice. It looks knocked around for something that's only been raced a few times, but by the same token it's also done 400 miles on dirt in a trailer and has no suspension, that hurts it as much as anything else.......

    But , all in all it looks better than I expected it to. It's really hard to stop the salt getting into it, salt is hygroscopic , it attracts water so it doesn't just sit there dry in the car.... it drags water from the air and busily continues rusting the steel....so it's pretty hard to be sure you've got it all out unless you dunk the car in water....in fact if you go out to the shed and there's condensation on the car somewhere it's a safe bet that it still has salt in it somewhere.... I have a rotisserie the last car on it was my EH van(sadly sold), when I get back from the salt this year I'll be making mounts for the belly tank and its going upside down to be hosed out once the drive-line and wiring are stripped out again.



    +
     
  6. soop

    soop Banned

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    Nothing a Karcha washer won't fix mate!
    As for the megasquirt. Maybe you need a 14yrd old to take a look for ya's?
    I bought a Haltech E11V2 for my Subaru a couple of years ago, cost me a touch shy of $1100. The tuning software is very very self explanatory. I recomend you download it and have a look.
    For the Buick and old school E8 Haltech ECU would do the trick. I've seen them going second hand for less then $1000. You can get the support components to fit them second hand through Haltec themselves too.
    Very good ECU.

    Heck even an interceptor might be all you guys need: Universal ECU Kits

    Here's the link to the software if you're interested in browsing, software is totally free: Platinum Inteceptor Downloads - Haltech Engine Management Systems


    I had a totally random thought. How does the intake work on your car?
    Does it just suck through a filter (if it has one) on top of the throttle body or does it pull it in from the outside by some means?
     
  7. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    I was gonna PM Soop to make sure he didn't have the shits with me. BUT. I'm pretty in tune with the whole thing of lets be big men about this. I don't think he's shitted off with me , but I'm not so arrogant to think that he may not have taken offence at something I said.



    Soop, tell me stuff, I'm not here for a pissin contest and you should know that....


    BTW the intake is a high plenum with two stock TB's you can se the valves through the TB's, they operate sequentially.


    I'm skun, my neighbours had drinks.

    Arriva!

    EDIT:jeez I can barely remember writing that last night...it must have been the fifty million drinks....

    Anyway I had a look at the Haltech site,I'm gonna do some reading.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2011
  8. soop

    soop Banned

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    LOL wtf?

    With the megasquirt thing, I just mean if a bunch of grown men can't sus the computer out a 14yr old will. That's the way it goes, little bastards seem to make everything work. Was just a joke :D
    I was thinking with regards to the intake, if somehow it was pulled from the outside, at 200mph the air pressure building upbehind the valve would be paramount to having a supercharger strapped to the motor. Just a thought anyway.

    The Haltech stuff is top notch.
     
  9. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    Yeah, I was tempted to edit that stuff out but I'll wear it, I had one working eye two brain cells and a finger when I staggered home last night and typed that piece out....., still running a bit rough.

    An american mate last week suggested a "fourth grader"could work our stuff out with five minutes and a half working laptop.....

    Air charge is a common topic in land speed circles , the accepted technique is work out the column of air you need at top speed, and build an intake to suit which is why you'll commonly see very small intakes reaching clear of the cars boundary layer.You have to work out how many times the motor is turning for every metre you drive and size the intake accordingly if you can imagine...... Rod Hadfields Donovan big-block Commodore had a bit of boost calculated in, they reckoned they were getting about 2psi or something over atmo at 400km/h but most people try to arrange their set up so that they don't lean out at top speed.It's one of the unique hazards of landspeed.... The other trick is to make the cross sectional area of the intake expand rapidly so the pressure is stable.Our scoop is simply to turn the air downwards there is no seal around the throttle bodies and there are vents directly behind them .....we might still be getting a bit of pressure though, and yes if we had data logging we'd know....
     
  10. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    If you made a sealed intake and tuned it for boost with a 2bar map sensor(one of the many benefits of EFI) then no lean out's would occur when the intake pressurises at high speeds............ ;)

    musta been a good new years party :D

    let the march to a new land speed record continue :)
     
  11. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    next of Kinsler

    Got an email from Kinsler yesterday:

    Hi Guys,
    I'm in Australia and are wondering if you guys have a manifold that suits the Buick LN3 V6, I was hoping you could give me a parts list or point me to the right part of the website .

    Thanks and Happy New Year.

    James"Dr Goggles" Stewart
    Hi James and Happy New Year to you as well!

    Unfortunately, we do not have any manifolds available for the LN3 3800 GM engines.


    --
    Kind regards,
    Brian
    Kinsler Fuel Injection


    So that kind of puts an end to that...........
     
  12. ozman599

    ozman599 New Member

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    streamlining

    Hi Dr Goggles,
    You stated a few posts back that their can be no bodywork outside the inner edge of the tyres in your class.
    Had you thought any about streamlining the axles.
    Most aircraft with tubuler struts have a cover that goes round the leading edge and tapers back to a point at the rear.
    Might give you a few more kms an hr if legal in the rules and fairly easy to do.
    Cheers, Steven
     
  13. soop

    soop Banned

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    That's actually a really good idea.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    oh oh, now you've got him started...........

    I can't say we've thought of everything but both of us are "outside the box " types and so we've come up with most permutations and combinations.

    It's a good idea, if you spend any time in LSR circles it's a no-brainer and something we have always meant to do but putting neutral foils over the axles is something we just haven't got around to.Setting them up for a bit of downforce at the rear would be a good idea if we were suffering wheel slip.....down force costs drag( so this is where the value argument comes in) that is not necessarily a bad thing because the perfect situation that all landspeed racers are chasing is to get the COG(centre of gravity) ahead of the COP( centre of pressure) an arrow is a good example , heavy tip, feathers that cause drag at the back. If you made the fins on an arrow out of lead it wouldn't fly far before it swapped ends.

    Cars go straight when the drag is at the back and the weight is as far forward as possible.... but when a car overpowers the track the simplest way to increase the available thrust( no, traction is constant and on the salt it is about .6 of bitumen) is to add weight over the rear, that shifts the COG rearwards...it's a good chance that the car is losing traction bcause it is "hitting an aero wall"...that means the COP is forward....next thing the car will swap ends hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

    I could continue on and you'd all fall asleep....I'll talk about our car.

    The ideal aero shape is a teardrop with it's widest point about a third of the way along. Despite what people think a blunt rounded nose is better up to supersonic speeds, it compresses the air trying to get around it, that accelerates the air, then a gradual transition to the tail to minimise separation and "put the air back together"....It is often said that with subsonic aero "it's not how you enter the air but how you leave it that makes the difference"

    Aeroplanes are made to fly, and be manageable at different speeds , they aren't usually ideal examples of aero, even military planes are compromised because of their design criteria...be it heavy payloads, short take-off or high manoueverability.

    From there I'll make the point that perfect aero shapes are not "directionally stable" to make them controllable you need to trade of with some drag ......we took what is an aeroplane wing tank and very close to a perfect tear drop and put wheels and a cowl on it.....we went to great lengths to keep as much as possible inside the body, we passed on suspension, we designed the front end so that the tie rods lay behind the axle , we ran the exhaust all the way through the body so we didnt have hot gases tearing up the boundary layer doing it's best to stick to the sides of the car. We changed the disc brakes on the rear to drums which would fit inside the rear rims.......If you look along the mid-line of the car from in front the front axle, tie-rods, split wish-bone,rear radius rods( commodore panhards) and rear axle all line up .
    [​IMG]

    OK , here we are , the ideal aero solution would be a flatish section which went all the way from the front axle to the rear, as it stnds just adding axle covers would have a minimal effect....... that would look weird, and here's where I make a confession. We fell in love with the look of these things and when we drew it up we wanted it to look cool. We made every effort to try and NOT make it look tough......everyone is trying to look tough and really , really few people are. We wanted to make it look light, and poised ...then I wanted to make it go faster than everyone thought possible.....by sticking to basic principles we ended up with a very very good aero shape. With a VP donk that had done 330,000k's it did 260km/h , and stopped there because of the limiter ....that shut a few people up( "they're **** those motors, get a V8 , you won't go fast with one of those rough pieces of rubbish, get a real motor) , didn't hear a peep out of the nay-sayers when it did 311km/h (yeah OK the motor self destructed).....as it goes our revs tee up with our speed which means we aren't getting ANY wheel slip, that tells us two things, one we aren't making gobs of power but two it means we have super clean shape.

    I can't legitimately say we have a world contender in the class because I definitely know I'll never have the dough or the support to build a NA 320hp motor that will hold together at 8500rpm, that's what we need to run at 240+mph.We might be able to build the 3litre version to rev to 8grand, and we'd only need about 260hp and that would get us very close to the record in that class.........


    We worked on all sorts of things and from back then have renders like , er , this....
    [​IMG]
    which would use ground effects to provide downforce, thing is we don't need it...but it was a nice thought...



    I've left a few holes in what I've explained....fire away.
     
  15. soop

    soop Banned

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    No well, that makes sense....

    You wouldn't even consider that unless you'd been there done that I guess, but it really does make allot of sense. Interesting sport this. Like chess on wheels.
     
  16. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    To answer this directly , we are out of revs. The air resistance pushes you backwards, the engine power is related to how much you can put into the track....when the total drag equals the amount of power you can put down you will spin the wheels , if the power curve tapers off at the speed you are travelling to the point where it falls below the drag curve then the engine will rev no higher.

    In the last run I did last year I was putting on 12mph per mile , we need more power , to accelerate faster so we can go faster in the same distance... THEN I might hit the seven mile at 7000rpm, that's 209mph................ so the motor needs to stay together but it also needs to be making power up there otherwise the drag will swat it....


    is it starting to make sense?
     
  17. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    Chess?..........I'm crushed.....

    just kidding, when people hear about you building your own car and racing at what most people see as ridiculous speeds they think WOW, daredevil , swash-buckler.......

    You're right Soop, it's geeky....it's lots of science, but it's a bug and I've got it baaaaaaad!
     
  18. soop

    soop Banned

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    I can understand the attraction though. Its a really simple problem with a very complicated answer.
     
  19. delcowizzid

    delcowizzid on holiday

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    do you own the buick powersource manual it has a few 8500 rpm 3.8 engines in it but older models than ours but has lots of good info on how to extract power from NA and turbo v6's has proven combos and torque and hp curves for each combo even lists all clearances and cam specs great book its the v6 bible
     
  20. Dr Goggles

    Dr Goggles New Member

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    At the recent "Shootout" which is an inviation event for Non SCTA legal or world record contender cars and bikes there were four cars over 400mph, they were all quite different approaches.....the rules of physics are immutable, but there's a million ways to interpret them.

    Gold, that's what I'm here for .....doing a search on buying one now, thanks Wizz.
     

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