Just Commodores Forum Community

It takes just a moment to join our fantastic community

Register

[LS3] Is the Euro 5 VFII affected by detuning... is it 304?

Discussion in 'LSx Development and Modification' started by monstar, Mar 13, 2018.

  1. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    There you go again, don’t quote figures without evidence, that’s for the general forum not here. Stop putting generalised 2¢ worth without backing it up with qualified evidence. Not welcome OK? Third fricken time nobody is interested in vague comment here in the tech section.
    Are you just trolling to get a reaction?
    Piss off with your maxims else put up some qualified data.
    In any case, higher ratio rockers won’t help the cam in the LS3.
     
  2. PeteSS

    PeteSS Active Member

    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    101
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney
    Members Ride:
    VF Series 2 SSV Redline
    Hmm. a stock VF1 pulling 236rwkw ?

    Mine might even crack 500rwkw on that dyno....

    One thing that needs considering too is the majority of tuners, be it Harrop, Walkinshaw, or your smaller operations (Russo, OZtrack, CHE, Sam's, etc) all quote higher power figures for the same mods when comparing a VF1 to VF2.

    For example the basic Harrop mods on a VF1 is quoted at 325fwkw, whilst the same mods on VF2 is quoted at 375fwkw.

    they can't all be wrong ??
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  3. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    Yes @PeteSS there is a lot of unqualified misinformation floating around and of course it is in the shop's interest to portray the starting point as low as possible and the end point as being incredibly high.
    The disparity in specific reports is the purpose of this thread, so lets get some qualified dyno reports and analyse them. There is a lot to learn from about the engines (specifically cam) and what is / isn't possible by analysing and understanding both fact and fiction.
    The one credible real-world source has the stock VFI at 236.4 rwkw, and VFII at 242.2 rwkw. I have had conversations with the operator, know his background enough that he was a contributor the 821 development through L92 prototypes before the our L76 and intake were finalised (several years before the LS3), the nature of the tools and software hence high confidence in the figures backed by actual strip times.
    Do I believe any properly calibrated and corrected dyno log? Absolutely as long as all the crosschecks and checksums like typical BMEP add up, sure.
    Problem is most dyno logs are accepted as being accurate at face value, and are not much more than normalised line art to depict a marketing goal.
    For the time being the stock delta VFI->VFII, verified by runs down the 1/4, is 5.8 rwkw.
    I've yet to come across any technical source inside GM or aftermarket who can fully explain the cam events of the L76 vs L98 vs L77, and why. Yet in the aftermarket there is always a tried and trusted cam from yesteryear that will improve peak HP. Just need to change a few thing$...
    Am I skeptical about the snake oil tactics and overinflated figures and the performance equation dumbed down to one number? Sure.
    Anyway Pete if you have some stock VFI or VFII dyno logs to post would be appreciated.
     
  4. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    Another way of asking the same question: When did the LS3 tune (camshaft?) change to make peak at 5400 PM?
    Since the first dyno released by GM Powertrain in 2008 through HSV / GXP in 2009 through Camaro in 2010 and Chevy SS in 2015, the LS3 made 317 at 5900. The HSV's GTS 325 made 325 at 6000 and the SV340 made peak at 6100.

    Indeed we believe the output of our LS3 is the same as the US car. So...

    Many of the VFII dyno charts clearly depict LS3 stock peak power (and some even when modified o_O) occurs at 5400 RPM, depicted as ~183 kph in 3rd gear pulls.

    With it's marine variant, with a different camshaft, GM shows it is possible for the LS3 to make peak power at 5400. This suggests VFII may have a different camshaft to the Chevy SS and HSV models.

    This correlates to the anomaly evidenced in recent video trial of the VFII vs the KIA Stinger GT where the first shift from 1st-> 2nd was at a surprisingly low speed, around 45 kph, or 5300 RPM.
    That is not the 6300 WOT RPM shift point setting in the tune, rather it's the Part Throttle Shift (vehicle speed all part throttle normal shifts will occur based on throttle position) triggering at 43 kph. So yeah, that's different! Why has it been calibrated to do that for this engine and ignore the WOT RPM Shift setting?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  5. lmoengnr

    lmoengnr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Location:
    Sunbury Vic.
    Members Ride:
    MY12.5 Maloo R8, MY12 Redline ute, Magnum 224
    MY17 transmission tune, WOT shift point 1st to 2nd is 6200RPM with transmission in normal mode.
     
  6. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    Here is a good example, a screenshot from a video testimony posted in another recent thread. Although there is no data basis shown for determining the level of output (data panel removed / not calibrated nor corrected), it does indicate the VFII stock power peak occurring at 5400.
    The purpose of the diagram is to show that with a tuning target near typical LS3 peak (6150 @ 208 kph) the engine is shown to make 385 kW and presumably driveline 304 rwkW.
    Screen Shot 2018-03-15 at 12.43.59 pm (2).jpg

    Also Post #6 above shows stock VFII tuning target at 5400 again, also claims with CAI and tune makes 285 rwkWw (362 kW) at same RPM.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  7. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    I will load the Chevy SS tune and perform a detailed comparison to the VFII tune calibration and post results here.
     
  8. 3rspecB

    3rspecB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    566
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VF2 SSv Redline, White Manual Sedan
    Yes please. From my powertrain colleages who worked on both variants, they have advised that the engine cals are slightly different (more agressive for the Chev SS). Also the Chev SS stock exhaust is different to the stock Aussie VF2 LS3 exhaust. Chev SS sedan utilises H pipe in the mid section.

    Resized_20180315_145535.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
    monstar and lmoengnr like this.
  9. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    I was hoping to find a J1349 chart for the VFII, not published nor ever listed on GM Powertrain, so that 5400 stock peak remains a practical mystery for the time being :confused:.
     
  10. 3rspecB

    3rspecB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    566
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VF2 SSv Redline, White Manual Sedan
    I'll ask the question. All the engine/trans work for VF2 LS3 and Chev SS LS3 was done internally by GMH Powertrain so unlikely a J1349 will ever be publicly released. Engine dyne, chassis dynes and ecu/trans cals all done here..
     
  11. lmoengnr

    lmoengnr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Location:
    Sunbury Vic.
    Members Ride:
    MY12.5 Maloo R8, MY12 Redline ute, Magnum 224
    Similar to a HSV mid section. Do you know the diameter of the pipes?

    E3 Maloo 2.5" mid section.
    2017-11-28 13.20.08 (Medium).jpg
     
  12. 3rspecB

    3rspecB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    566
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VF2 SSv Redline, White Manual Sedan
    2 1/4", same as stock Aussie VF2. A higher grade stainless was used on the Chev SS exhaust due to the US salting their roads in winter.

    Interesting that HSV dropped the H pipe and went with an Xpipe in the mid section for VF.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
    lmoengnr likes this.
  13. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    Oh good, perhaps someone could explain why WOT launch loaded in Sports mode that the trans tune uses vehicle speed to change into second at 43 kph, so changes at around 5300 instead of defaulting to WOT shift table and revving out near 6300?
    Please show this video example of car shifting early with pedal flat to the floor, notably not revving to WOT shift points defined in the trans tune.


    Also on the evidence of nearly a dozen independent dynos the engine develops peak power at 5400, which is 500 RPM lower than previous. Given the assumption is same engine (and camshaft) of 2015 Chevy SS, 304 kW at 5400 would suggest the engine is detuned by comparison.
    • Is that to meet emissions requirements?
    • What is the peak power output in this state of tune?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  14. PeteSS

    PeteSS Active Member

    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    101
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney
    Members Ride:
    VF Series 2 SSV Redline
    To throw another curve ball, there was a clip on Youtube (can't find it now) where there was a near 10rwkw difference in dyno reading on a VF2 with the bimodal mufflers open, then closed. I assume the 304kw Holden claims would be with the bimodals open
     
    monstar likes this.
  15. lmoengnr

    lmoengnr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Location:
    Sunbury Vic.
    Members Ride:
    MY12.5 Maloo R8, MY12 Redline ute, Magnum 224
    Thanks!
     
  16. 3rspecB

    3rspecB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    566
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Members Ride:
    VF2 SSv Redline, White Manual Sedan
    Found a VF2 Commodore brochure from Holden. Figures quoted using 98ron and per ECE regulations.

    So what standards are the aftermarket dyno operators using and from memory HSV quoted max figures are measured in DIN ?

    Resized_20180316_081918.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
    426Cuda likes this.
  17. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    2,309
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Location:
    Wagga Wagga
    Members Ride:
    VF Redline Sedan - A6 Spitfire MSE...
    Mine certainly shifts well beyond 6,000 @WOT too.
     
    lmoengnr likes this.
  18. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    2,309
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Location:
    Wagga Wagga
    Members Ride:
    VF Redline Sedan - A6 Spitfire MSE...
    Dyno run of my VF1 with 2.5" GEN-F mid section. Had a few thousand k's on the clock, so not brand new. It was a slug in stock form too, when compared to the VF2.
    received_1368291586650527.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  19. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Location:
    depths of Hays Inlet
    Members Ride:
    Peugeot 207 GTi
    That is not calibrated, shows worse than stock. If it were an outright measurement it indicates less power with the exhaust.
     
  20. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    2,309
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Location:
    Wagga Wagga
    Members Ride:
    VF Redline Sedan - A6 Spitfire MSE...
    Really? Spot on, or just up on stock, using the formula you quoted: 260fwkw÷1.27=204.7rwkw.
    The mid section exhaust with no tune would add 3/5 of nothing.
     

Share This Page