JC Political Thread - For all things political Part 2

ROFL, well this shows you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Granted, Howard got us into the **** that is Afganistan, but in HIS time in office, 6 diggers died. 34 have died in the time Labor KRudd and Dillard have been running the show.

And boat people, you REALLY need to look up some stats before posting. In Howards last year, 25 boat people arrived. First year of Labor 1033 arrived after they ditched Howards policies.

In the time Labor has been in office they have had about 5000 MORE boat people arrivals than Howard did over his entire run as PM.

In other news, wtf is a "legarcy"?

 

Perhaps some perspective would be useful. Is it really the government doing all the spending here? The states owe just as much collectively as the federal government, but even counting all forms of government debt, a quick mental calculation says that the governments collectively are responsible for about 15% of Australian debt, and the federal government accounts for about half of that.


"Truly, I don't think anybody realizes the urgency of the situation."


Truly, I think too many of you are sucked in by your own rhetoric. Australia has among the best financial bottom lines in the world. This is an indisputable FACT. Our economy is the envy of most if not all of the western world.

The federal government already owes under 8% (again, just a quick mental calculation) of the total national debt with the much vaunted $250 billion figure you keep throwing around. How many more cuts to services, and lack of infrastructure creation and maintenance, will you be willing to endure to lower that a few more points?


The telling figure is household debt, which accounts for triple the total of all government debt (without including housing!!).

Perhaps, instead of blaming governments, we need to look at our own personal debt levels, and the 'buy now, pay later' attitude towards personal finance that so many Australians take.


Australian Debt Clock 11am 12.10.12





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You're poorly misinformed. But that's ok, because you probably don't know what that word means. As Jester said about when Howard left office. All things that Labor has failed to address and have let get worse. Now let's start a small list of labor and their legacy:

Insulation Scheme
Carbon Tax
Mining Tax
Peter Slipper
Craig Thompson
Malaysia
Boats
More Boats
School Laptop Program...


Sent from here, so you can read it there via iPhone.

 

This whole "Abbott the misogynist" thing is a complete farce. If Gillard, Roxon, Plibersek, Maklin & co were sooooo offended by Abbott and his various comments over the years why did each and every one of them vote in support of Slipper and the text messages?? Why was it that Roxon who now it turns out knew of those texts for at least a month sought to settle the matter immediately so that the evidence would stay confidential? The only conclusion I can draw is yet again, Gillard and the ALP are demonstrating that they will do *anything* to cling onto power no-matter what the repercussions are for the country.


Reaper

 

You forgot the NBN.

 

The foray into Afganistan has had bi-partisan support from the day dot and continues to do so. Unfortunately for those concerned, the vast vast majority of Australia's public will not ever know why, or feel the benefits of the action over there. Had we not gone, many would have had the direct result of in-action. Makes it a hard war to fight when it comes to public perception.

Yep, no argument there. The problem is the trend.

Willing to - probably nothing. Have to - well you have to live within your means otherwise your children and their children will have far worse in the future. Just look at much of Europe and NA. The bottom line is that we have to cut expenses such that our expenses are trending slightly below income. Nobody wants to cut services. It's just common sense. On average we have spent around 2% more than our income for the last 4 - 5 years. That has to be reversed. Nothing to do with wants - it's common sense.

Yet since the GFC, Australians have been saving at levels not seen for decades. Thus the community seem to be bright enough to figure it out, pitty the ALP aren't! So to answer your question - we are!

Australians saving more of disposable income than they have for 20 years | News.com.au
Australians saving more and more | Savingsaccount | InfoChoice


Reaper

 

I agree mate, I've met religious women who seem to have Misogynistic views on their place in the world and there's no talking sense into them and I sense that mentality in Abbott. Of course this is just my opinion and I don't think its malicious on Abbotts part, just the different to how I see things. But I don't think Abbott is sexist or oppressive to women in his politics at all. His maternity leave scheme is extremely generous (maybe even too generous) and if there's one important policy area which promotes women in the workforce a good maternity leave scheme would be right up there.

I think the Labor Abbott scare tactics are way off the mark though. He's not going to banish women to the kitchen, issue them with an ironing board and become legal guardian of their wombs.

 

123 pages of complaining.

No wonder this Country is screwed.

 

I tend to avoid getting involved in political arguments.

However, I am starting to get annoyed at those commenting that Australia's financial/economic position is the envy of the Western World. Sure it is, but only because the rest are in such a mess. That is relativism at its worst. While I am sure that most would prefer Australia’s position to their own, I doubt that many would have Australia as first preference other than for our resources.

IMHO, the days of Western ascendency are now numbered. Those nations that will be the strong economies of the future would be appalled to be in Australia’s position, especially considering the resources that we have been blessed with.

Maybe, just maybe, this country needs to decide where its future lies. Will it remain tied to the West and Western policies, and accept the same long term decay as the others, even though it might take a little longer. Or should we be looking to be part of the next dominant economy. I suggest that we need to be comparing our position with countries more like China and other Asian countries than PIIGS, USA, UK, France etc.

 

I also get annoyed at people who say 'under John Howard's leadership, everything was rosy'. Its so easy to forget that John Howard was in power at a time when the entire world was in a boom cycle. Every country in the world with a stable government was doing well at the time. He would have had to be actively trying to make things worse if he were to have made a negative impact.

The current government and Rudd's government were presented with issues that Howard never had to deal with.
Disagree with it as much as you like, but its FACT. Maybe Johnny would have dealt with it better, we will never know, because HE NEVER HAD TO DEAL WITH IT.

I'd prefer to avoid the Chinese model too.. sure they are doing well, but only at the top level. Human rights and living conditions are still terrible. The Chinese economy is certainly growing, but from what level? Its catching up with the rest of the world, and by force of sheer numbers, will be the biggest economy in the world for years to come. On a per capita basis though, its still a bad model. I admit to being leftish in my outlook, but communism is the most UNequal system of government in the world. Their country grows richer, but the vast majority of the lower classes are worse off than ever. Its only those at the top that are doing well.

Are you advocating us moving towards the corruption and human rights abuses of China?

 

Well that's not the case either. Howard was in power during the biggest global terrorism scare since WW2. He and Costello also led Australia thru the Asian Economic crisis that was right on Australia's doorstep. Most people seem to miss that or are too young to remember it what so ever.

Reaper

 

Really? I'm seeing 123 pages of links to interesting articles and a bit of discussion which is mostly pretty civilised.

 

While I agree with many of your comments there, I think some are off the pace.

I think what people are expressing their concern about is not left or right policies so much as the financial management of government. There have been many governments of the left in history who have been prudent managers of their country's economy. Surely it is hard to argue with the claim that this one is not.

A catch cry seems to be that the previous federal government dropped the ball on infrastructure. Never mind that responsibility for the bulk of infrastructure belongs to state governments, which were ALP generally over that time. In addition, the current government's efforts on infrastructure have not been momentous, mainly comprising failure (e.g. insulation, BER) or excess cost for the outcome (e.g. BER and NBN).

Basically what we have now is a BIG increase in federal government debt with very little to show for it, and we will be paying for it for a long time to come. I believe that things could be much better now than they are if the federal government (and state as well) had been more fiscally responsible with the people's money.

And to counter my comments with a throw-away line about advocating corruption and human rights abuses is a bit much when we are discussing an entirely different issue. Still you are entitled to you point of view. It's good living in a relatively free country, isn't it.

 

No offense mate but the global terrorism scare did little to hurt us at all apart from slightly reduced tourism, and the Asian financial crisis was a drop in the bucket compared to the GFC.

The Asian crisis reduced exports by a matter of a few percent, and increased imports over the same period. Our financial markets were barely affected at all, and Australia still reported solid growth, low unemployment, and low inflation over that period.

I remember it, I just don't remember it having any major impact.

 

I believe it was you who said 'I suggest that we need to be comparing our position with countries more like China and other Asian countries than PIIGS, USA, UK, France etc.'.

I don't see my response to that as a throwaway line, its a valid observation, and if its a different issue perhaps you shouldn't have brought it into the debate. China would and could not be the financial powerhouse it is without the corruption and human rights issues I spoke of.

 

You don't think either of those had the potential to set Australia back in a big way if things weren't managed well??? See - this is the problem. Manage things well and the world carries on oblivious. #### it up and everybody notices.

Have a look how it effected much of Asia.

I studied it. Australia did exceptionally well at the time thru good judgement and economic practice.

But we have a new parsomething of Parliamentry something something thats working something something according to Oakshott and Windsor.

Reaper

 

thanks fella's for pointing out my spelling mistake, i am informed enough too know that Germany is again showing who's the boss in europe whie the poms worry about which royals dick or tits are on display. this is what we asspire to with our pathetic groveling excuse for GOV of both parties.Anyone can look up stats, in canberra they look up skirts.PS to DAKSTER, the lunitics are still on the grass.

 

Please excuse the lengthy post, but this is one paragraph from a speech made by Alexander Downer at the time regarding the 'Asian Crisis'. The speech in its entirety can be found HERE.

Please note, he has not at any point claimed that any direct action whatsoever was taken to avoid problems caused by crisis. Instead, he has pointed out that

'This solid performance was due to good growth in exports to the United States and EU in particular, as well as to a range of emerging markets.'

and followed up with

'At the same time, Australians have benefited from the best economic fundamentals for a generation.'

Of course, he places the medals for these economic conditions on his own governments chest, as any government would, but the fact remains that the entire Western world was doing very nicely, thank you. A catastrophic mistake would have been very hard to make under the conditions at the time.

You have to admit, this doesn't sound like they were struggling to keep their heads above water. You simply cannot compare this event with the GFC, as you have.



... Alexander Downer, Australian Foreign Minister, 1998 ...

How Australia has fared

Australia's close economic interdependence with East Asia means that our trade is inevitably affected by the regional downturn.

In 1997-98, Australia's merchandise exports to East Asia - $47.2 billion - actually increased by 5.5 per cent over the previous year. But Australia's merchandise exports to the region declined sharply in the first two months of 1998, contributing to a downturn of 5 per cent in the first eight months of this calendar year compared with the same period in 1997.

The outlook remains very clouded, although since May we have seen monthly exports to the region pick up slightly, in trend terms, on the strength of good export sales to Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Good sales to some smaller regional markets, like Vietnam, have also defied the downward trend. Now, the latest trade statistics for September indicate a flattening of the trend. Clearly, the continuing volatility of East Asian economies means we must remain cautious about assessing these trends.

While our exports to East Asia have declined, Australia's merchandise imports from the region have been climbing. Most of the increase has been in manufactured items, but because many of the items concerned are not produced in Australia our consumers and producers are benefiting from the lower prices - a fact reflected in the latest excellent quarterly figure for inflation. Nevertheless, in some areas, such as apparel and paper, domestic producers are facing increased competition from East Asian exporters.

Australia's overall trade performance has, despite the East Asian crisis, held up remarkably well. Our exports of goods and services in 1997-98 grew by 8.2 per cent over 1996-97. Merchandise exports grew by 9.3 per cent and services exports by 4.6 per cent. And we are maintaining modest growth this year. The figures released last Friday indicate that for the first nine months of 1998 we have registered an increase of 2.7 per cent in the export of goods and services over the same period in 1997. Abstracting from factors such as the one-off gold sale by the Reserve Bank in 1997, merchandise exports were up 6.9 per cent in the same period.

This solid performance was due to good growth in exports to the United States and EU in particular, as well as to a range of emerging markets. Overall, exports to non-East Asian markets rose by 22.9 per cent compared to the previous financial year, justifying the strong effort made by the Government since coming to office in 1996 to encourage greater market diversification by Australian businesses.

At the same time, Australians have benefited from the best economic fundamentals for a generation. Interest and inflation rates that Generation X-ers had thought were fanciful exaggerations that only their parents made. Levels of growth amongst the world's highest. A budget that is in very healthy surplus.

What we have through our example been showing the region, and the world, is that commitment to economic reform and liberalisation can help a country withstand serious economic shocks. Our ability to avoid the worst of the economic trends in our region and be in a position to offer our neighbours a helping hand is proof enough of that. It underlines the Government's commitment to reform and to keeping markets open.

 

Am I the only one that would love to be a fly on the wall at your place when the political news came on whilst you were watching? Not saying you do but I could imagine you getting verbal at the TV and the thought makes me lol.