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JC Political Thread - For All Things Political Part 2

Calaber

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I guess a country's PM is the nations rep on world stage. Look at Dubbya. He made the USA a laughing stock.......Gillard got global brownie points for the anti-sexism speech (whether or not it was warranted is another question)

Will be interesting where Greens preferences go. What got Adam Bandt over the line was that the local Libs and Greens did a preference deal. Seeing what happened here may get 1-2 more greens in the lower house but not holding my breath for anything meaningful......if it is the bloodbath people are predicting Greens will have no impact.

Katter is hilarious. reminds me of that crazy Texan out of the Simpsons LOL....

To foriegn observers seeing Gillard on YouTube, they would have seen a female leader sticking it up her opponent, without having any idea whatsoever what caused the outburst or the background leading up to it. It may well be the highlight of her political career, and one she may savour in years to come, but on the domestic front, where things really count. that speech reeked of hypocracy. Any female voter who was swung over by it is sadly lacking in the mental faculty department if that is all it takes to get their vote.

The Greens? I think they stink to high heaven too. The actions of various Greens since 2010 defies all logic. Marrickville Council in Sydney, with a Green Mayor and various other Green councillors, banned all dealings with companies either owned, sympathetic to, or dealing with, Israel, out of sympathy for the Palestinians. What the hell did that have to do with a local council? Even Bob Brown was bemused by that one and stated that it was entirely inappropriate. Milne has failed to hold the Green vote at Brown's levels and lacks the "charisma" or persona to improve the situation. I doubt the electorate will give the Greens anything like the 13% of the vote they gained in 2010, much of which would have been protest votes from disillusioned Labor voters after Rudd's knifing. As you point out, even if their vote holds up, it wouldn't be sufficient to get the "alliance" over the line if Labor gets the predicted belting.

And Katter? Well, he would have to be a Queenslander, wouldn't he? Home of Pauline Hanson, Jo Bjelke-Peterson and various other political nutters over the years. Doubtless, he will get significant votes in some seats and could end up holding a few independent seats, but I doubt that he would have the balance of power. He'll contine to be a political oddity, thought a shrewd and calculating one.
 

minux

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http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...fraud-squad-20130131-2dmnn.html#ixzz2JW3FLfDW

“An arrest warrant had been issued for the 48-year-old man by Victorian authorities following investigations into allegations of fraud committed against the Health Services Union,’’ a police statement said.

“He was taken to Wyong Police Station where he is expected to be charged by virtue of the arrest warrant with a fraud offence.

“It is expected he will go before Wyong Local Court where a further 149 fraud charges are to be laid.’’

About bloody time.

I wonder if his dipshit lawyer is still going to follow through on his threat to sue police :rofl:

Edit: Just a thought, with Gillard announcing the election does this mean there can now be no by-election if this tool is charged?
 

DAKSTER

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I don't get the obsession with Turnbull. I'll vote Lib's with Abbott as leader (although I'm not particularly impressed with him) but I'll be forced to vote for mickey mouse if Turnbull successfully challenges for leadership. The man's as spineless as a Jellyfish and he comes across as a sleazy used car salesman. His efforts playing up to the crowd on Q and A are truly cringeworthy.

I've voted Labor in the fairly recent past and I like the idea of a female atheist PM to mix things up a bit, but in practice I'm completely unimpressed with the Labor party performance and I think a stint in opposition would do them some good

Turnbull is the only man in politics in recent times to sacrifice his political needs to satisfy his principles. Whether you agree with his stance on carbon tax or anything else, he defended his position to the point where it cost him the leadership.
He doesn't come across to me as sleazy at all, in fact I believe he is one of the few truly honest people in politics.

Tony Abbot comes across as substantially more sleazy than Turnbull. He reminds me of American politicians, disingenuous to the last, and playing on the fears and prejudices of the people. He is as fake as an American smile.

Why do leaders matter? Because ideologically both parties are very similar.. its simply the details that differ. There is really nothing to choose between them. They both will have to deliver a budget, they will both tax the crap out of us.

They don't have a lot of choice in that regard - if you want hospitals, roads, education, debt reduction AND lower taxes you have your head in the sand.

Abbot is making a bunch of promises about tax reduction, money for this, money for that, but isn't giving any hints of how he will pay for it all. He has said he won't.. 'you first, Julia.' A skeptic would wonder if he is hoping to get some ideas from the ALP before he decides where the rabbit in the hat is going to come from.

I have a particular issue with the total lack of decorum and co-operation within the parliament too, which I blame on Abbots 'lets just attack the other guys ideas instead of coming up with our own' strategy.

All of the various major policies which are discussed so commonly.. asylum seekers, national broadband, welfare rorting etc.. are targets for both parties. Its the fine details.. Nauru or Manus Island, who gives a crap where we send them? ... that differ.

*On a personal note, I was born at the disused Australian Naval Base which has now become the Manus Island detention centre.. I would have preferred Nauru lol

He will remove the carbon tax, and hopefully the mining tax too, but do you really think he wont replace those with similar taxes with slightly different implementation and a renaming? Again, you have your head in the sand if you believe that. He doesn't have a choice, he has to pay for his promises somehow, and he is making a lot of expensive promises.

As a leader, the party tends to follow the leaders views on most things. The penalty for not doing so is demotion or dismissal, same as every other party. So, we ARE voting for a leader, not a party. The party will reflect the leaders views.

I too am very disappointed in ALP at the moment. I don't consider myself a swinging voter, but given a viable alternative, I will swing at the moment. Never to Abbot though, and even my many Lib friends and family agree with this. The greens and Mr Nutter (oops Katter) are not an alternative to me either, so unless Abbot is flicked, I'll be sticking with the devil I know.
 

Reaper

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Craig Thomson Arrested



About bloody time.

I wonder if his dipshit lawyer is still going to follow through on his threat to sue police :rofl:

Edit: Just a thought, with Gillard announcing the election does this mean there can now be no by-election if this tool is charged?

I don't think the she has actually gone to the GG and asked for an election yet so yes. When the GG approves an election parliament is dissolved and it goes into a bi-partisan caretaker sort of arrangement. That hasn't happened to my knowledge.

That said, the only way a by election would be needed is if Thomson resigned from his seat or was convicted of a crime resulting in 1 (?) year jail or goes bankrupt.

Go bankrupt? Can't see the ALP letting that happen. Not before September anyway.
Convicted of a crime? Yeah maybe but the inevitable appeals etc could take years
Resign from his seat? Doubtful but you never know. The pressure on the guy must be astronomical, plus if he resigned before a trial he will keep his pension which he could/would loose if convicted. I know what I would do in his situation.

Reaper
 

minux

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Turnbull is the only man in politics in recent times to sacrifice his political needs to satisfy his principles. Whether you agree with his stance on carbon tax or anything else, he defended his position to the point where it cost him the leadership.
He doesn't come across to me as sleazy at all, in fact I believe he is one of the few truly honest people in politics.

LOL, look at his history with Goldman Sachs...nuff said. This is why he wants an ETS.
 

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Turnbull is the only man in politics in recent times to sacrifice his political needs to satisfy his principles. Whether you agree with his stance on carbon tax or anything else, he defended his position to the point where it cost him the leadership.
He doesn't come across to me as sleazy at all, in fact I believe he is one of the few truly honest people in politics.

For me, Turnbull lost a lot of ground in the Gretch affair. Not so much that Gretch duped everybody (well for a while) but he demonstrated terrible judgement over the whole thing. Something like that should be launched by an aspiring back bencher who has far less to loose if it comes un stuck. It did come out after the event that many of his inner circle did recommend that Turnbull not personally peruse the issue but he would not be dissuaded.

Tony Abbot comes across as substantially more sleazy than Turnbull. He reminds me of American politicians, disingenuous to the last, and playing on the fears and prejudices of the people. He is as fake as an American smile.

Why do leaders matter? Because ideologically both parties are very similar.. its simply the details that differ. There is really nothing to choose between them. They both will have to deliver a budget, they will both tax the crap out of us.

They don't have a lot of choice in that regard - if you want hospitals, roads, education, debt reduction AND lower taxes you have your head in the sand.

Abbot is making a bunch of promises about tax reduction, money for this, money for that, but isn't giving any hints of how he will pay for it all. He has said he won't.. 'you first, Julia.' A skeptic would wonder if he is hoping to get some ideas from the ALP before he decides where the rabbit in the hat is going to come from.

I say he is doing the only thing he can. It'll play out like this:

The mid year budget will say we have X in the kitty
Both parties will make pledges spending X- a bit
If Abbott wins he will get into government and find things a lot worse and will have to ditch some of his pledges.

Happens after every change of government. 2 notable exceptions - after the Howard and Kennet governments. Turns out there was more in the kitty than forecast. Hmmmm......

I have a particular issue with the total lack of decorum and co-operation within the parliament too, which I blame on Abbots 'lets just attack the other guys ideas instead of coming up with our own' strategy.

Yet the ALP's misogynist sexist line lead by Gillard, Roxon and Makklin are entirely fine? LNP have pledged to release all policies before the election. Standard practice for every opposition. If they get to the election without publishing their relevant policies then fine, shoot them down in flames. Right now - what difference does it make? As you mentioned below, we know the LNP's position on most of the big issues.

All of the various major policies which are discussed so commonly.. asylum seekers, national broadband, welfare rorting etc.. are targets for both parties. Its the fine details.. Nauru or Manus Island, who gives a crap where we send them? ... that differ.

*On a personal note, I was born at the disused Australian Naval Base which has now become the Manus Island detention centre.. I would have preferred Nauru lol

He will remove the carbon tax, and hopefully the mining tax too, but do you really think he wont replace those with similar taxes with slightly different implementation and a renaming? Again, you have your head in the sand if you believe that. He doesn't have a choice, he has to pay for his promises somehow, and he is making a lot of expensive promises.

Removing the Carbon tax is good but I am somewhat nervous on how he intends on unwinding the wealth redistribution scheme that went with it. The mining tax - well so far it has raised exactly $0 so really the revenue won't be missed.

As a leader, the party tends to follow the leaders views on most things. The penalty for not doing so is demotion or dismissal, same as every other party. So, we ARE voting for a leader, not a party. The party will reflect the leaders views.

Have to agree there. Any leader worth their salt will be able to impose their view on the organization and have the troops fall into line. That's the point of a leader! Of course it won't be unanimous and there will be a few interjections from the peanut gallery but overall the leaders view prevails.

I too am very disappointed in ALP at the moment. I don't consider myself a swinging voter, but given a viable alternative, I will swing at the moment. Never to Abbot though, and even my many Lib friends and family agree with this. The greens and Mr Nutter (oops Katter) are not an alternative to me either, so unless Abbot is flicked, I'll be sticking with the devil I know.

So you are happy to vote for a woman with a long and documented track record of lies, deceit and lack of judgement over a guy that you just don't like :rolleyes:

Reaper
 

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LOL, look at his history with Goldman Sachs...nuff said. This is why he wants an ETS.

His history with Goldman Sachs? You mean the HRH Insurance royal commission where he was questioned about his and Goldman Sachs involvement? The commission that made no adverse findings against him or the firm?

Perhaps you actually meant his history as chairman of Axiom Resources, who were accused of clear felling on the Solomon Islands by the highly respected (tongue in cheek) leader of that country Solomon Mamaloni. Curious, an ETS would have been most disadvantageous to that operation if the accusations were correct, and of course if the Solomon Islands had an ETS in the first place. I cant see how those events would have caused him to support an ETS.

I guess it is an example though of how it is possible to spread yourself too far, and his claims that he knew little of the ongoing operations there probably don't say great things about his micro-management skills.. but as he has never been charged with anything, I think it has little to do with his honesty.
 

DAKSTER

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For me, Turnbull lost a lot of ground in the Gretch affair. Not so much that Gretch duped everybody (well for a while) but he demonstrated terrible judgement over the whole thing. Something like that should be launched by an aspiring back bencher who has far less to loose if it comes un stuck. It did come out after the event that many of his inner circle did recommend that Turnbull not personally peruse the issue but he would not be dissuaded.

Agreed.

I say he is doing the only thing he can. It'll play out like this:

The mid year budget will say we have X in the kitty
Both parties will make pledges spending X- a bit
If Abbott wins he will get into government and find things a lot worse and will have to ditch some of his pledges.

Happens after every change of government. 2 notable exceptions - after the Howard and Kennet governments. Turns out there was more in the kitty than forecast. Hmmmm......

So, a change of circumstances will cause Abbot to break pledges? But that wont make him a liar? hmmm interesting...

Yet the ALP's misogynist sexist line lead by Gillard, Roxon and Makklin are entirely fine? LNP have pledged to release all policies before the election. Standard practice for every opposition. If they get to the election without publishing their relevant policies then fine, shoot them down in flames. Right now - what difference does it make? As you mentioned below, we know the LNP's position on most of the big issues.
Their behaviour is also not OK. I would consider a large percentage as reactive rather than active though.

Removing the Carbon tax is good but I am somewhat nervous on how he intends on unwinding the wealth redistribution scheme that went with it. The mining tax - well so far it has raised exactly $0 so really the revenue won't be missed.

Agreed. He needs to get the cash from somewhere, if he takes that one away, something else will take its place. You need to worry, he will take it from the top end of town, despite any bleatings to the contrary. Abbot just wants to get and keep the job, he isn't going to risk taking any more from Joe Average.

The mining tax is also a problem for him.. SO FAR it has raised no cash.. but the cash it was SUPPOSED to have raised is a major amount of money he is going to have to find from somewhere. In time, the tax will probably bring in a fair slab of income, it just isn't doing it yet. When the good times start rolling again, so will the income from that sector. I don't agree with the tax, but it WILL eventually bring home the bacon, does he have a spare pig to compensate for losing that?

Have to agree there. Any leader worth their salt will be able to impose their view on the organization and have the troops fall into line. That's the point of a leader! Of course it won't be unanimous and there will be a few interjections from the peanut gallery but overall the leaders view prevails.
Agreed.

So you are happy to vote for a woman with a long and documented track record of lies, deceit and lack of judgement over a guy that you just don't like :rolleyes:

Reaper

When the other alternative has exactly the same faults.. yes.

There is one factor you aren't mentioning here.. Gillard is in power, anything she does has to be accounted for, and her failings have been exposed.

Abbot so far has only had the opportunity to make promises.. lets just see how many 'Lies' he is accused of after (if) he is in power for a couple years shall we? Or in his case, will he use the Johnny Howard line of 'core and non core promises' .. of course then you wouldn't call him a liar would you? Only the ALP tells lies.. :rofl2:

And of course he will never use changes in circumstances as an excuse will he?
 
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Cheap6

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WTF are you on about? They are **ALL** questionable. There has been a whole industry grown in the science community over global warming. It's good for business to have such "science" on the front page - attracts grants etc which pays their wages. No alarm, no grants, no work and they might have to try and survive in private enterprise. Same deal with the economists. TBH a lot of their rhetoric is not much more than speculation. The accuracy of which is..... well..... questionable at best. The problem with all of these predictions, and there is no doubt that some are accurate, is deciding which to believe??? No different to the Y2K bug, god know how many flu's and the like over the last few years and I can go on. We get into a massive tizz and then find out it's not as bad as we thought. This all smells very much the same to me.

Reaper

Do you have any idea of how scientific discovery is conducted? It's sole purpose is to discover the objective truth about the rules by which the physical world operates. Try to fabricate something and, because it's not the objective truth, sooner or later it will be discovered. If it was being done with intent, that's end of career. No more funding of any kind.

But, let's humour you a little and suggest that there is a world with no such thing as AGW. Would there no longer be scientists studying how the Earth's climate works? Of course not because it's useful for us to know when and where to expect drought and floods etc. and to adjust our behaviour accordingly. We would still want to know whether or not it was an acceptable risk to build on areas where we might expect severe flooding occasionally or plant crops with some knowledge of the risk of drought. Climate science would still be funded because it is about discovering how the Earth's climate works and not just about AGW.

I should also point out that most scientists - except in some areas of specialty - don't actually get paid a whole lot. Probably less than you. That's despite having spent 4-8 years on training at tertiary level. And, yes, they would get paid more doing something else in private enterprise for equivalent effort .

On the other hand, let's say you have a business or businesses, in which you have a rather large investment, that will disappear because it is a major contributor to AGW. What then is your incentive to understand how the climate works, if the outcome of that understanding means you can no longer conduct that business? There will be no oil, coal or gas industries nor high global warming potential refrigerants in a world where AGW is addressed.

What if you had religious beliefs that conflicted with the reality of AGW? How hard would it be to reconstruct your belief system within the forced understanding that the climate responds to physical phenomena in conflict with what you now hold to be true?

Then ask: Who has the incentive to figure out how the Earth's climate works in an objective way and who has the incentive to obfuscate? Who has the money? Who has the PR departments? Who has the political influence? Here's a hint: it's not the scientists.

Funnily enough, the early evidence suggests that those climate scientists may have got a few things right. Unless you think that the record and near record high temps. - 5 days at the highest ever recorded average temp. for Australia - and floods - now twice in three years in Qld - and extreme bushfires didn't happen. Melbourne didn't get a night time temp. that all but matched the previous record that also occurred in the last few years. Sydney, together with a number of other population centres, didn't experience new record high temps. this year?

Perhaps the record droughts over the last couple of years, with the corresponding wildfires and crop failures, the early starts to tornado seasons and super storm Sandy (as just one example), once again with record and near record intensity and flood levels, in the US didn't happen?

Perhaps the UK didn't get unseasonable flooding rains and drought?

Perhaps parts of Eurasia didn't experience extreme drought?

No floods in Bangladesh, the Philipines or Indonesia?

Perhaps there haven't been unusually intense snow storms in the Northern hemisphere?

Perhaps the summer ice in the Arctic didn't get close to or exceed (it's still being calculated but already looks bad) near record lows in 2012? Perhaps there isn't evidence of permafrost melting and releasing methane that will act, with the increased albedo due to the absence of the sea ice, as a feedback to increase the rate of warming?

There are any number of unusual weather events over the last few years that are indicative of a warming world and, most importantly, in line with the predictions made by climate science.

How much has it cost in terms direct loss to destruction of homes, crops and infrastructure with storm, drought and fire damage? How much lost productive time and effort while the effects are cleaned up or evacuations made and infrastructure restored? It was 60 billion or so for Sandy and, I think, 4 billion for the last Qld floods. How much for the crop losses in the US?

Have you even read the Stern or Garnaut - including update - reports? If not, how do you form an opinion as to whether they are inaccurate or not? Have you seen any credible analysis that, acknowledging AGW is occurring, suggests it's a better outcome to allow it to happen and pay for the consequences?
 

minux

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God dammit who let the staffer out?

There are any number of unusual weather events over the last few years that are indicative of a warming world and, most importantly, in line with the predictions made by climate science.

How much has it cost in terms direct loss to destruction of homes, crops and infrastructure with storm, drought and fire damage? How much lost productive time and effort while the effects are cleaned up or evacuations made and infrastructure restored? It was 60 billion or so for Sandy and, I think, 4 billion for the last Qld floods. How much for the crop losses in the US?

Errr..so Queensland has never flooded the way it has before? Nor the US had big storms?

Right...So with no carbon we will see no floods? Interesting, what were the cause of floods and heatwaves in the 1800's? Don't even get me started on the wild fires..that funnily enough most have been deliberately lit or started because of sparks from machinery...amazing how forests burn when you are not allowed to clear them of dead rubbish.

Deary me.
 
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