JC Political Thread - For all things political Part 2

Not just some, gossie. Many. Bloody incredible that a person with Shorten's recent political history and absolute lack of political commonsense can be the preferred PM by a large margin. Useless p***k. Abbott may well be a poor PM, but Shorten would make him look like a genius.

I imagine if he gets to be PM, Hicks could receive some form of compensation for his "suffering".

 

Hey, he hasn't even been in yet, give him a chance! We had to endure Abbott for many months giving him "a chance" before criticising him, remember.

 

I really hope you're not one of those who thinks he would be an improvement? His credentials are pretty unimpressive.

Why can't either party find credible leaders at present?

 

You wouldn't want him in. He just one of those union people wanting to give everything away to the "poor people" that don't want to earn it for them selves.

 

I don't know. Party factionalism? Doubling their pay certainly hasn't worked.

 

So now we have the Indonesian people running a "collection" to send back to Australia (or at least, Tony Abbott), to repay the money Australia gave after the tsunami. I realise it's not a real collection - just an internet pay-back of a different kind.

Now, I know that some on this forum believe that Abbott's statement regarding the foreign aid given on that occasion constituted a threat (a view with which I totally disagree), but I have said a number of times that the Indonesians have shown an arrogant, thankless and disrespectful attitude towards Australia for years, but have been very happy to accept our foreign aid. This latest act by the ordinary Indonesian people is an indication of that attitude IMO.

OK, so the Indonesian government (and probably the general population) want to carry out these two executions, as is their legal "right". However, if they consider that our assistance to them over the years is so "mean-spirited" that it can be thrown back at us like that, why would we bother helping them out any further? In fact, why is it that we, a country of only 23 million, are still helping out a nation of well over 110 million which now has a robust economy, comparatively stable government and is a modern nation in its own right anyway?

Abbott was damned if he did and damned if he didn't try to save the lives of the two criminals. The Australian population is mixed in its feelings towards the executions, but would have expected their PM to do something positive. His efforts "may" have been clumsy, but they were at least genuine and sincere. He obviously offended Indonesia, which would not have been his intent, but was it unreasonable to at least try to appeal to their government from the position of being the leader of a decent and caring neighbour who has helped out on many occasions (and in the case of the Aceh disaster, did more than any other country to help?)

 

They're probably still pissed off about East Timor.

 

at the end of the day, we choose were aid money goes.
i hope to see the bali 9 executed for their crimes.
i also dont want aid money going to Indonesia for several reasons.

 

Gren

I often think that our cultures are too diversified for the two countries to ever really trust each other. Also agree that our aid has been more of a political bribe than anything else too and would like to see the aid incrementally reduced to nil over a period of perhaps five to ten years. I think we have helped them more than enough.

 

250 mil v 24 mil pop , I think we're the minority here.

 

Yeah, correct. 252 million in 2014. My figures were way off the mark. At that time, 3.49% of the world population.

Being supported (to a small extent, at least) by 23 million, less than 1/10th the Indonesian figure or around 0.3%

So how much longer is that going to continue and why?

Some of the assistance dates back to the mid to late 60's, around the time Soekarno was president and not particularly friendly towards Australia at all. Since then, relations have thawed and under SBY, they were generally pretty reasonable, apart from the odd phone tap or cancelled meat exports.....oh yeah, and East Timor.

Our assistance has been via actual financial and medical assistance for a number of factors as well as Aceh, military training and co-operative operations and to assist them patrol their multitude of islands, we donated a number of our obsolete naval patrol boats a few years back. Still had plenty of life left in them but our navy required more capable and up to date vessels. There would also be mutual co-operation on business and education fronts and of course, without Aussie tourists, Bali's economy would probably be a basket case.

It will be interesting to see if the relationship between the two countries is affected once the executions take place. Australians who strongly oppose the death penalty will feel resentment that their feelings and desires were ignored and Abbott will probably continue to be pilloried for his failure. If Indonesia feels so strongly about Abbott's approaches, you have to wonder just how he could have dealt with the matter without offending them - I suspect it would have been Mission Impossible. I could imagine a strong government that wasn't self destructing could stand up to the Indonesians and tell them that foreign aid was going to be downgraded gradually and that eventually, it would cease. Unfortunately, we don't have that sort of government at present and if Labor wins, we certainly won't see a strong political spine then, either. I have yet to see any strength of character or resolve from Shorten and I'm not about to hold my breath waiting, either.

 

Here's another issue to debate regarding the forthcoming executions.

According to news reports, the prisoners are to be flown from Bali to Java via chartered aircraft, then conveyed by boat to another small island for execution. The chartered flights are to be accompanied by a number of Indonesian Air Force fighters which have been overflying Kerobokan? gaol for the past day or so.

So, why the fighter escort?

What is it that the Indonesians are taking steps to prevent? Are they concerned that the prisoners might somehow take over the aircraft and fly it to a safe haven (ie Australia, presumably, being the nearest)?

Do they think that an attempt will be made to intercept the transport aircraft and direct it to fly to a foreign safe haven? (Australia again, presumably).

Is it a show of force to convince Australia, (or any other country whose citizens are due to be executed this time round) not to interfere, or show how determined they really are to carry this out?

What a massive overkill, if the media reports are accurate.

And, if those reports ARE accurate, how offensive is it to Australia that Indonesia would even think such steps were necessary.

 

havnt you seen the movies where the henchmen free the boss while he's being moved

 

I'd say before the twisting of the knickers it would be apt to establish if this is a standard protocol for foreign nationals.

 

Valid point but even if it IS standard protocol, why? What do they really think will happen?

@eevo. Yeah, I've seen those movies, but that's Hollywood. This isn't.

 

sounds like a challenge.

 

Anyone's guess, but based on our own escorting arrangements for dignitaries and prisoners (ooh the irony); In the event of emergencies, you have immediate assistance, communications and witnesses, there's no room for mystery. The former point is probably moot with aircraft as they just get to watch it crash, but at least they'll know where the wreckage is.

I don't doubt for a second that a large part of the whole escorting arrangement is for the dog and pony show. That said I don't really think the Indonesians give two shits about us, like we'd like to think they do, we're just a bunch of spoiled, low population whiteys with cool toys and soft laws that lives in a society believing in obligation to our less fortunate fellowman.

I'm sure we really don't give two shits about their handful of hand-me-down dilapidated fighter aircraft. We could end any confrontation without launching a single Hornet.

 

Is it Malaysia Airlines plane? If that is the case, that is why they have an escort As stated before, like Helly-Wood crap; someone watched too many times Con Air