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LS3 Lifter noise or Piston Slap?

Yond

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I said i wanted it in writing that it was "normal" and that it won't be detrimental to my engine, which i got.
I recommend that you now contact Holden Customer "Care" and ask for an "outcome letter" for this "concern."
 

IBLOWN

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Like Kakodaemon said, i bought this car when i heard Holden was going under as an investment. Ive made a pretty penny out of it thats for sure, but i cant even sell it making this noise. So now im up for probably $10k to rebuild it just to shut it up. I know slap doesnt hurt, but tell that to a potential buyer looking to spend $90k while its knocking its brain out. ridiculous. 65,000 kms and its rooted. Wish i had have just bought a damn AMG like i wanted​

 

Pollushon

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but they suffer lifter failures, injector failures, ( in the USA overheating due to DexCool issues),… and I believe to a less extent, oil and water pump failures… Ok not every engine suffers such issues but they aren’t extremely rare events…

So I’d not say they are incredibly durable, rather, I’d say they are incredibly cheap and easy to fix (and mod) which would be more accurate… especially in the USA where they are ubiquitous and really cheap at any wreckers… with parts shops carrying all manner of mods… sadly the same isn’t true down under :p

But even if they are incredibly durable, as you say that doesn’t diminish the dissatisfaction many have for piston slap. Durability claims doesn’t diminish ACL claims against being sold a product that wasn’t as demonstrated (which also means dealers can’t warm up cars prior to test drive as that’s deceptive conduct)…

You know for a guy without a build thread, a what you did to your car post and doesn't even appear to own an LS, you sure have a lot of opinions. Opinions based on the internet will mostly show you the exception not the rule, horror stories for all occasions. There are literally millions of LS in something like 40 flavours through a plethora of GM vehicles. All engines have issues and ancillary problems like a bad batch of injectors doesn't detract from an engines durability. LS have been known for slap and noisy valvetrains since the late 90's

Anyone who's worth their salt in the game will tell you that for the last 20 years the LS family has been the one of the most durable and reliable engines built because of their old school simplicity
 

VCoz

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Well what do ya know.... Absolutely nothing wrong with my car at all! Completely normal noise for these engines, even though only some do it and some don't! I said it was rubbish and that the noise was embarrassing and has devalued my car, but who cares right?
They showed me a photo copied piece of paper from GM regarding piston slap, but said i couldn't take it with me. It said piston slap was normal and in bold lettering said "Do not replace engine." It was only half a page and looked like the bottom half had been covered over when photocopied.
There was no point arguing and i didn't want to burn my bridges with the ONLY Dealer that has ever looked after me, but i wasn't happy and said that it wasn't a normal noise. I said i wanted it in writing that it was "normal" and that it won't be detrimental to my engine, which i got.
Glad I didn't get angry as they didn't charge me anything for the loan car nor did they charge me the $154 for the diagnosis.


View attachment 239136
So apparently it is normal for some LS3's to do this 'normal' noisy characteristic and that others don't? You wrote 'GM regarding piston slap, but said i couldn't take it with me.' (The likely standard document was DL 65/16 (attached as posted by another member) - GM Australia have made the claim/and not denied that DL 64/16 exists? - I have seen no evidence to believe it does!)
So who decided that 'It said piston slap was normal and in bold lettering said "Do not replace engine." - first question here is was an engine replacement under Good Will made to GM Australia/asking for the engine to be replaced? 'It was only half a page and looked like the bottom half had been covered over when photocopied' - what needed to be hidden from the owner of the vehicle? (Note the $Billions compensation that Toyota is currently facing within Australia re Diesel Filters on 3 of its post 2015> diesel vehicles.)
Re GM Australia's LS3 cold start engine noise claims and diagnostic approach - I hope to have a lot more to share after my Australian Consumer Law (ACL) legal process ends - both in evidence obtained and ultimately what Consumer Guarantee under ACL means for Holden LS3 owners in practice.
To my understanding - key statements you were given 'assumed written by the dealer' in your post (or influenced) include - 'ACCORDING TO GM/HOLDEN THIS IS NOT A DURIBILITY CONCERN.' So if GM/HOLDEN 'categorise' this cold start engine noise as a normal characteristic? then how many others have the same level and type of cold start engine noise? and then how many abnormal engines don't make that noise (never or until Xkms)? Yes, so then what does durability mean for YOUR engine and KM driven (and for those without that experience what IS being claimed to be 'normal' noise)? So how was this noise limited to 'piston slap' and not include other manufacturing faults. Quality control appears more relevant to current LS3 owners than past durability (or is it continued running) because of the simple design of an LS3 engine. As stated if the consumer would not buy a vehicle, if aware it made a loud cold start racket, then how long it keeps running is not the only issue under ACL (please read your State or Territories legislation re vehicles and why so called 'lemon laws' were created). ACCC is Federal and focuses primarily on Manufacturer and Dealer practices which impact on Consumers.

Question: What does engine internal damage look like to an independent LS3 repairer/engine rebuilder and what heard/visual internal damage would be ignored by an independent engine builder if an LS3 engine was reconditioned to be back within normal specifications (i.e. what would be independently 'categorised' as normal variations from engine specifications/tolerances re YOUR engine if independently disassembled for repair? As stated in an earlier post if you go down the repair path get any out of specification readings and lots of photos - and keep all key parts replaced.

So, now are LS3 owners expected to accepted that GM/HOLDEN (with a $$$ conflict of interest) can without transparency re the diagnostic assessment information, blindly accept claimed Knocking/tapping sound that GOES AWAY AFTER 4-5 MINUTES' under 'some' GM Australia set test circumstances satisfies some hidden GM standard, or is it that at any unspecified noise level is OK today during GM Australia LS3 tests. Where is that GM/Holden claim verified within some alleged or 'proprietary' hidden GM specification? What has been claimed above does not to my understanding fit with GM (US) Technical Bulletins that I have seen re Piston Slap (suggest LS3 owners do their own US searches to form an informed decision rather than just say some engines last hundreds of thousands of Kms (you will find that some don't and some 'normal piston slap' claims are found not to be correct and some after disassembly to be lifters (which cause internal engine damage))).

FACTs I have experienced to date: Manufacturer pre-determined/self review is very different to independent review made prior to GM Australia's influence.
I understand your urgency and position but, 'If I was you" I would register your matter/GM Australia's response with the ACCC as soon as possible and also ask the dealer to put in writing just how that GM Australia's diagnosis was formulated/tests conducted (and did the Dealer agree or just accept GM Australia's opinion as over-riding their factory trained technicians experience/diagnosis).
 

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Skylarking

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You know for a guy without a build thread, a what you did to your car post and doesn't even appear to own an LS, you sure have a lot of opinions. Opinions based on the internet will mostly show you the exception not the rule, horror stories for all occasions. There are literally millions of LS in something like 40 flavours through a plethora of GM vehicles. All engines have issues and ancillary problems like a bad batch of injectors doesn't detract from an engines durability. LS have been known for slap and noisy valvetrains since the late 90's

Anyone who's worth their salt in the game will tell you that for the last 20 years the LS family has been the one of the most durable and reliable engines built because of their old school simplicity
Didn’t know only those with build threads could own an LS or have opinions of Holdens, it’s dealers and other business shitfuckery :oops::p:p

I’m more than aware that forums can seem to overstate the number of problems a specific vehicle type may have. But the millions of durable vehicles, well that’s no comfort when I’ve experience a few issues with my motorsport edition that has left me feeling there is little to no support from Holden. The statement HCC have made to me have proven to be bullshit as they don’t stand by their statements they‘ve made previously. I’ve sorted out most issues but it’s been a battle.

Seems the American approach to fixing problems is to have a class action as the only way forward. And in the USA there have been many many class actions… Really a vehicle manufacturer isn’t just a clattering durable engine, there is so much more and GM/Holden fall short..

I expected much more from my Holden dealers and HCC and have found them to be liars who don’t stand by their statements. Not to mention the few problems that should have been resolved easily took ages… So when my injectors fail, when my engine starts to hammer, what can I expect, nothing but a $15k+ bill to fix what shouldn’t sound broken. So occasionally I end up toying with the idea of selling the beast. But then I go for a drive and I’m in love again until something else is annoying… love hate love…
Holdens handling of the EPS issues, injector issue and piston slap issue hasn’t been great. And now it’s even worse. People have had their motors replaced but now it normal. It’s inconsistent and unfair to those that are not happy, regardless some think these engines are durable… That’s not the issue… IBlown says it well
I know slap doesnt hurt, but tell that to a potential buyer looking to spend $90k while its knocking its brain out. ridiculous. 65,000 kms and its rooted.
 

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This is what slap looked like in a 240k LS1. There were three cylinders like this. Noisy AF cold since the day I got it. Could barely feel it with a nail, I put 14 pounds through it for the next 60k and it's hit 320k in the car it was transplanted to. Not a durable motor at all. Ultimately you'll never know unless you strip it

pic02072017155644396_1_1.jpg


pic02072017145732519_1.jpg
 

Pollushon

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Didn’t know only those with build threads could own an LS or have opinions of Holdens, it’s dealers and other business shitfuckery :oops::p:p

I’m more than aware that forums can seem to overstate the number of problems a specific vehicle type may have. But the millions of durable vehicles, well that’s no comfort when I’ve experience a few issues with my motorsport edition that has left me feeling there is little to no support from Holden. The statement HCC have made to me have proven to be bullshit as they don’t stand by their statements they‘ve made previously. I’ve sorted out most issues but it’s been a battle.

Seems the American approach to fixing problems is to have a class action as the only way forward. And in the USA there have been many many class actions… Really a vehicle manufacturer isn’t just a clattering durable engine, there is so much more and GM/Holden fall short..

I expected much more from my Holden dealers and HCC and have found them to be liars who don’t stand by their statements. Not to mention the few problems that should have been resolved easily took ages… So when my injectors fail, when my engine starts to hammer, what can I expect, nothing but a $15k+ bill to fix what shouldn’t sound broken. So occasionally I end up toying with the idea of selling the beast. But then I go for a drive and I’m in love again until something else is annoying… love hate love…
Holdens handling of the EPS issues, injector issue and piston slap issue hasn’t been great. And now it’s even worse. People have had their motors replaced but now it normal. It’s inconsistent and unfair to those that are not happy, regardless some think these engines are durable… That’s not the issue… IBlown says it well

Make your mind up. Durability, reality and the sh!tfookery of stealerships are not synonymous. You said they're not durable, I said you couldn't be more wrong about that statement and that alone. I won't offer opinions on things I don't have fact and experience with, you seem to have no issues doing exactly that and smearing up two very different topics

Iblown is right for the average buyer but an LS aficionado wouldn't be bothered if the motor is noisy AF cold and warms to a gentle sewing machine. Rooted LS don't do that, quite the opposite

You should hear my stroker cold

images (1) (2).jpeg
 

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Make your mind up. Durability, reality and the sh!tfookery of stealerships are not synonymous. You said they're not durable, I said you couldn't be more wrong about that statement and that alone. I won't offer opinions on things I don't have fact and experience with, you seem to have no issues doing exactly that and smearing up two very different topics

Iblown is right for the average buyer but an LS aficionado wouldn't be bothered if the motor is noisy AF cold and warms to a gentle sewing machine. Rooted LS don't do that, quite the opposite

You should hear my stroker cold

View attachment 239153
Looks like your piston let go on your cold stroker :p

I said the following
So I gnoring the noise for the moment, the question then becomes what is the expected durability of an LS1 (in kms) given recommended servicing? When would an engine rebuild be expected; at 100,000kms, 1/4 million kms or 1/2 million kms or more… how durable is this lump of an engine? And what is Holden’s definition of durable… bet it not the same as what we “normals“ would consider it to mean…
Holden claim durability but they don’t define it.

So the question then becomes what is durable and what will they stand by should something fail at a later date… If the noise becomes unbearable and the clattering lasts for 10 minutes before it quietens down even though the vehicle has travelled just 140,000 over 10 years, will GM/Holden stand by their durability statements? what are the limits, where are the bounds? Will they cover costs if an owner pays to strip it down and check all specs (my guess if a p9lice fook off). It just seems that GM/Holden are kicking the can down the road hoping they can quietly slicker away :mad:

That’s the context of what I’m talking about… what is Holden’s view of durability and what will they stand by… Their shitfuckery has everything to do with it.

At the moment it’s just Holden moving goal posts. If it was ok to strip down @Ron Burgundy ’s engine to assess if its out out of spec, why doesn’t the same apply for others that have serious noises and concerns?

Interestingly, when there are durability concerns with GM vehicle components, within the USA GM has provided extended warranty for owners peace of mind. We get bupkis… we get told it’s normal…

At the end of the day, the only durability that counts is the durability of the specific engine in the vehicle owners engine bay (but even durability doesn’t matter if saleability is compromised).

The durability of the millions of other engines don’t matter. Such didn’t matter to Ron and I’m sure they don’t matter to @IBLOWN or @Kakodaemon or anyone else that has the problem. The only think that matters to them is how their engine behaves as they drive away in the morning (or what Holden may do when it gets worse or what it will cost them when Holden does nothing).
 

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Durability: the ability to withstand wear, pressure, or damage.

That's literally the LS to a tee. Refer to the pictures I posted, Google and YouTube

Whether it bothers an owner, affects saleability or whether Holden should wear it was not topic of my comment
 

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This is what slap looked like in a 240k LS1. There were three cylinders like this. Noisy AF cold since the day I got it. Could barely feel it with a nail, I put 14 pounds through it for the next 60k and it's hit 320k in the car it was transplanted to. Not a durable motor at all. Ultimately you'll never know unless you strip it

View attachment 239149

View attachment 239150
Mate ours is the same, one slapping on the right bank and two on the left. I could understand it a little better if they were all slapping. Have these problem cylinders not had enough lubrication, or are there differences in bore and piston sizes?
 
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