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maffless tunes

Discussion in 'VZ Holden Commodore (2004 - 2006)' started by god007, Nov 10, 2014.

  1. god007

    god007 New Member

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    Trying to comprehend the prices out there on Maffless tunes .....how can these high performance places justify charging $1200 for a maffless on vz 5.7 auto and some on these mobile guyz can do the same tune for $400 to $600 ...I would personally prefer to go to a on site premises but why should i pay for their high
    over heads when they cant even decide to meet half way with their pricings .....At the end of the day its mainly all done by computer chip ?....Can anyone shed any light on this ?
     
  2. NU13

    NU13 Well-Known Member

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    for the $1200 ($1500 in NZ) you get a tune that individually suited to your car and a trans tune. Neither of which are offered by the postal tune guys (that i know of).
     
  3. exanVZ

    exanVZ Active Member

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    $1200 seems pretty high, I would shop around. I've rang a few places in WA recently and the price is about $800 on average, from well known performance shops.
    Does $1200 include an OTR intake as well as these are about $500 from most places.

    Tunes can be as cheap as about $300-400 from guys on gumtree, but how good the result is, I can't say.

    Edit: I see you're in perth, so talk to BYE performance, Street Quick Peformance or Active Automotive, they all quoted around $800ish from memory.
     
  4. god007

    god007 New Member

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    Thanks for the comments guyz yes i would say fair price for maffless tune on its ownd $650 to $800 any higher and you are simply paying for reputation .....seems to be many guyz out seem to want to take advantage of the situation by downing the little guyz out there .....
     
  5. _R_J_K_

    _R_J_K_ Well-Known Member

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    It's not simply a process of removing the MAF from the tune and then bam it instantly makes more power.

    Any shop you are taking it too you will be paying for dyno time. Any mobile guy will probably be flashing it with some generic mafless tune or doing some kind or road tuning.

    Part of the reason a "MAFless tune" makes more power is not really because they are removing the MAF, but because they are giving you a retune that is a huge improvement over the factory tune, so the dyno is an important tool. In this sense, a shop can provide you with a tune to suit any mods on the car at the same time.
     
  6. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    Most changes can be made with one flash, true. However it depends on what the problem is, if any, and how much rooting around is deemed appropriate to customize the car to suit you. Unless you are looking to maximize WOT performance at top revs, paying extra for dyno time is overkill. Having said that, safely measuring output and AFR during PE can only be done with a properly setup dyno, operator and tuner. That's at least two people, a shop, a PC driven dynomometer, and miscellaneous props.
    But no matter who does the tune, most time is not actually on the dyno or driving but calibrating after reading, scanning, logging and analyzing.
    More so than rollers a good street tune requires WideBand feedback. Without that it is fairly hit and miss, and I imagine gumtree and eBay dudes utilize vehicle sensors only, with a FlashScan or other handheld.
    Consider the actual seat licence for your VIN is about $200, call out $200, $150/hr for time spent. That's about cheapest you can get from someone who speaks English and doesn't resent doing the job because you are being scabby and there's no money in it. Definitely will be better than stock, restricted on what can do without WB or rollers.
    If you are getting CAI / exhaust you are way better off paying a couple of hundred more to get a full custom tune (that's if you want max WOT performance), book it in with a tuner who at least has access to the the gear above and do it once.
     
  7. torana355

    torana355 Member

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    $1200 is closer to the price of a tune with a OTR. A tune alone is usually closer to $800. Also beware that generally you get what you pay for ;) Every time ive had a car dyno tuned i always see someone rock up that has had a cheap mail order tune looking at getting the tune fixed due to the car running like ****.
     
  8. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    Also if you don't understand what you actually want then someone will give you what they think you need. In which case doesn't matter how much you do or don't pay you won't get (satisfaction) out of that you paid for.

    Qualify what you want by talking about your driving style including where, time of day / year and how frequently, and what you like and don't like about the current tune, rather than trying to quantify all that with a rwkw number.
     
  9. torana355

    torana355 Member

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    Generally the guys that charge $1000 plus have plenty of business due to their good reputation so they can charge a bit more. Its simple supply and demand.
     
  10. ari666

    ari666 250,000 hits

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  11. chargedvx6

    chargedvx6 Active Member

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    Road tuning guys for half the price of a dyno tune place also don't need to pay off their $50k plus dyno. The dyno will be able to extract max torque outta your rig but like ari says mafless isn't always called for and MAF is a pretty decent piece of equipment to be throwing away imo
     
  12. NU13

    NU13 Well-Known Member

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    There must be some good in going MAFless others why would so many tuners recommend it?
     
  13. SS-REX

    SS-REX New Member

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    I am not a tuner or even have a mafless tune but i guess it's cause of less restriction a WOT.
     
  14. torana355

    torana355 Member

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    It allows more scope for upgrades to bigger cams ect in the future. I was told by my tuner that if i was going to go a Cam upgrade in the future that mafless would be best.
     
  15. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    Firstly, OP has LS1 with slow ECU and low resolution (old) small maf, no OTR CAI and likely the original injectors fitted over a decade ago, so he simply fits replacements, gets mafless tune / new OS and he is going to notice a world of difference. A little conversation with tuner before he begins and he is going to be happy as well.

    Short Answer: Mass airflow meters are able to measure airflow. This information is sent to the engine management system and it is able to arrange a precise amount of fuel be injected for that airflow. The problem is that there are many situations where airflow is the same even though the loads and rpms can be very different.
    For example 2000rpm at a high load and 3000rpm at low load can have the same airflow. This can cause variations in AFR ratio between the two situations, and these will result in inferior fuel economy, more popping on backoff and less smoothness as the car accelerates at any load relative to a mafless tune that is done properly with all the correction factors adjusted precisely.
    The mafs also pickup some turbulence and this creates some very rapid variations in the airflow values it provides the ECM and this results in undesirable variations in spark timing advance.

    Complete Answer: The fueling accuracy is much better at all loads if a mafless tune is done properly than can ever be provided by a maf tune. By properly I mean all loads are adjusted to be accurate. This is also dependent on the 02s sensors being in good working order.
    The oxygen sensors are able to detect when at anything less than full load whether the air fuel ratios are near 14.63:1 and adjust the fueling coming from the fuel injectors to pull the AFRs closer to 14.63.

    However if the O2 sensor trimming system is having to make big corrections because the main fueling is out then this results in the cars engine not running as smoothly and it will also use more fuel because it is less efficient.
    If the fueling is accurately shaped and adjusted then the 02 sensor trimming system has less adjustment to do and they can even be even turned off to allow leaner cruising mixtures to improve fuel economy.

    The tuners challenge is that air fuel mixtures vary with variations in air temperature, coolant temperature and air pressure.

    With old engines running carburettors they run richer when the air is hotter this is because there is less oxygen in hot air and the carburettors jets will always supply the same amount of fuel because there is no correction available. In these modern injected LS1s they should be able to adjust and compensate for variations in weather conditions accurately and always give accurate air fuel mixtures even when at full throttle.

    Much of this achievement was made possible because of the modern computer engine management that is available for standard engine management systems in the LS1s. There is an operating system upgrade available for LS1s that improves upon the factory programming, it has extra tables that help take control of what happens to the Air Fuel Ratios as weather conditions change. It also offers the ability to precisely control fueling in boosted engines and even offers throttle percentage based fueling which is useful in engines using 8 throttle bodies etc.

    To tune a maf is a simple table with airflow on one axis and the fuel value on the other. This makes for simple tuning. The problem is that mafs are not always accurate and cannot tell the difference between a high load situation at low rpm and a low load situation at high rpm, it is possible for both these situations to be equal in airflow and be covered for fueling by the same value which is a bad compromize.

    The maf can also pick up turbulence and can rapidly oscillate the spark timing advance , this is because indirectly the MAF effects the timing advance values. Tuning without the MAF is much more difficult to do properly especially in a E38 equipped engine because the fueling is controlled by an equation which needs to be indirectly manipulated so that fueling at all loads and rpms is accurate. But the advantage is with mafless tuning all different loads and rpms are uniquely controlled.

    It's important with mafless tuning that the engine sensors are all healthy and working accurately. The fueling is effected by the intake air temperature sensor, coolant temperature sensor and manifold pressure sensor. It is also important that the intake air temperature sensor is reporting true convective air temperature and is not erroneously reporting radiant heat from the air intakes solid parts. The factory intake air temperature (IAT) sensor is located inside the MAF which is right next to a hose to the radiator carrying coolant. This hose often heats up the IAT and makes it report temperatures well above the real induced air temperature - IAT temps of 80 degrees on a 25 degrees day. The effect of this error are unstable air fuel ratios which are usually on the leaner side of being desired.
     
  16. ari666

    ari666 250,000 hits

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    a lot of guys seem to think the MAF is a restriction to the intake, but it ISNT. there are plenty of F/I cars on hptuners.com that run a MAF and put out silly HP figures. a SD tune is much easier to get you on your way to get a cammed engine running a decent lambda, but a lot of the guys over at HP are trending back to MAF, simply for the accuracy and efficiency it allows.

    the onlyreal justifiable excuse is that most OTR's cant fit the old style honeycomb MAF, so you go mafless as a result. a simpler fix would be to fit a later style sideways-looking-thing.

    getting rid of the maf is getting rid of a really really useful measurement device.
     
  17. NU13

    NU13 Well-Known Member

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    Make no bones about it i know nothing about this topic other than what i have read and what my tuner suggests so i wont be arguing. Some bloody information for the OP in this thread. It's great to have such knowledge on the site for us all to learn from.
     
  18. ari666

    ari666 250,000 hits

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    bro, not trying to call you out, but you need to hit the books a bit more.

    the MAF and the MAP work in comparison with each other, an SD tune (i.e. mafless) just uses the MAP. there are MAF correction tables that the ecu references based on airflow, any noisy results get filtered out and it runs on the MAP sensor until the noise is stabilised. this usually happens when airflow exceeds the maximum a MAF can report.

    i think youre getting youre wires a bit crossed here.

    when you tune a vehicle you start by making a SD tune, which means you unplug the MAF but leave it in place. once you have all your tables set via your MAP [read: once youve finished your SD tune] you then plug in your MAF and adjust your gains accordingly. the MAF works in ADDITION to the SD tune, not INSTEAD OF.

    MAPS can often throw noisy results too. so having the balance between MAP and MAF (yes yes, plus IAT, TPS ECT etc etc) means you get a FAR more accurate and superior tune.
     
  19. PIR4TE

    PIR4TE Banned

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    OP has an LS1, my wires not crossed. Turbulence (for whatever reason) leading to inaccurate reporting, gets worse when scaled because of lack of resolution (hz), and ecu's ability to process it.

    Yes mate I realize that is ideal custom tune (albeit redundant), but that is not what happens in a budget MAF tune...

    Oh well goodo, I've responded to a thread query with some points as to why that's not the case, doesn't matter. I really think the choice depends on engine year / model, ECU speed / capability, sensor reliability and OS version as to whether in the detail you should spend more time doing both. I started with both, went mafless and will probably stay that way running WideBand because of MAF noise, else use a Camaro LS3/LS7 MAF card in 100mm housing way back near original location. Coz MAF less than 3" from TB doesn't produce near laminar flow required for stable reporting, so on my car with OTR, MAF as well is a furphy.

    Anyways I will be looking at both options with new tune, which is without a doubt the most complex calibration for an Australian LS engine: 14:1, flex fuel, variable cam phasing, custom grind street cam while retaining properties of the active fuel management and streetable manners.
     
  20. ari666

    ari666 250,000 hits

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    im not gonna start a war, so just gonna focus on what we both can agree on. i.e ^^^ that.

    edit* wouldnt mind seeing if IBLOWN can cut me a ally bung so i can weld it on my intake pipe...

    ala:
    [​IMG]


    edit edit* or just buy it for 30 bucks...
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5-OD-89mm...Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a8559bf41&vxp=mtr
     

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