Making engine run quieter/smoother, ideas?

[Customcreations]

As a NOOB am I entitled to Stuff up??? also am going to try to add a PIC.

Here is a pic of the VS balance shaft I took out today with the front bearing on it and the rear needle bearing from a VN series 1 Which is a perfect fit to the VS COMMY ecotec.

I aslo measured the outer diameter at the rear of the block on the VS. That is also a perfect fit.
Outer diameter on block ( for rear) with digital verier caliper is:
47.5 mm
On the bearing (for rear) is:
47.6 mm

I am going to take a guess that for some reason I may have snatched the stopper clip of the front bearing cause it would be stupid for it to not have one.
I would :rofl: about it but I'm too busy :nutkick: myself
First pic is with a pre Ecotec needle bearing on the VS balance shaft
second is the front NSK stock Ecotec roller bearing
Measurement for the front is also the same outer diameter:
51. 91 mm for bearing outer
92 mm for location on block
yay finally figured out the pics

 

[Jxfwsf]

Bit more info from the same article regarding the 3800's evolution.

BALANCE SHAFTS
There have been three balance shafts used in the 3800. The early ones have a needle bearing in the block and the later ones use a sleeve bushing for the back journal.

•1988-’95 VIN C/L/1
The CN24502389 balance shaft was used for all of these applications from ’88 through ’95. It had a wear sleeve pressed on the back journal so it was compatible with the needle bearing.

•1995-’08 VIN K/2 (NATURALLY ASPIRATED)
These Series II/III motors had a different balance shaft. It’s a 334 casting that has a total of four notches in the edges of the counterweights. It weighs about 2190 grams with the bearing still on it. These balance shafts have a hole that goes all the way through the rear journal that bleeds off the excess oil pressure that can build up behind the back journal. This wasn’t a problem with the needle bearings, but it was a problem when the sleeve bushing was used on these engines.

•1996-’07 VIN 1/4 (SUPERCHARGED)
The late supercharged motors have a special, heavy balance shaft that weighs about 2480 grams with the bearing included. It’s a 336 casting that has a total of eight notches in the edges of the counterweights.

 

[Z2TT]

Custom so was the NSK bearing that you took out from the VS Number the one that had the P/N on it?
So Strange as holden and other people who are engine builders said definately not removable, weird anyway i'll
take your word for it and buy the NSK bearing. Or was the NSK one you pulled out from the Buick, but measured
up same as Ecotec.

So is the rear bearing removable on the VS too since you had it out? and from what I understand
the VS rear bearing is different from the Buick (in which you said for Buick the corrington fits)....
but even though the VS uses a different rear bearing, the Corrington one will still fit?
Wouldn't using the Buick style Corrington/Roller bearing be even better on the rear of the ecotec
since the Roller/needle bearing would be better anyway?

Brett I'm wondering why the bearing has to be renewed with special equipment? hmm
Shouldn't it be a a pull out push on sort of thing, or maybe it's just to void people off
from doing internal work themselves?

Custom, well since it looks like I can't remove my shaft from the front (right?) I am limited to only changing
the front bearing, in which I will get that NSK one, bearing shop has one in stock.

 

[Customcreations]

Bit more info from the same article regarding the 3800's evolution.

Thanks.
There it is in the writing.
88-95 has the bushing but is compatible.
:update: With a mod to oil journal

Dont feel so stupid after all.

 

[Z2TT]

Ah so both Buick and Ecotec are bush rear and your needle/roller bearing that you bought will fit both well?
Will there be any problem with oiling etc by fitting a roller to the rear or excessive noise?

What is this copper ring in there that is on the rear that was mentioned a while ago?

 

[Jxfwsf]

No they both aren't bushes.
The buick used a needle roller pressed into the block for the rear of the balance shaft. The sleeve in question on these is a hardened sleeve that would put up with more punishment than the cast lump of iron running on the needle rollers.

Ecotec has a bush pressed in instead, due to being a tighter fit the balance shaft was revised to have a hole bored in it to relieve oil pressure (i remember reading somewhere that if it doesn't have this it can pop the rear seal and leak).

Although it seems the dimensions remained the same between the 2, you would've thought they'd make it harder to swap parts around but i guess this saved money not having to create new tooling for a new breed of engine.

 

[Customcreations]

Custom so was the NSK bearing that you took out from the VS Number the one that had the P/N on it?
So Strange as holden and other people who are engine builders said definately not removable, weird anyway i'll
take your word for it and buy the NSK bearing. Or was the NSK one you pulled out from the Buick, but measured
up same as Ecotec.

So is the rear bearing removable on the VS too since you had it out? and from what I understand
the VS rear bearing is different from the Buick (in which you said for Buick the corrington fits)....
but even though the VS uses a different rear bearing, the Corrington one will still fit?
Wouldn't using the Buick style Corrington/Roller bearing be even better on the rear of the ecotec
since the Roller/needle bearing would be better anyway?

Brett I'm wondering why the bearing has to be renewed with special equipment? hmm
Shouldn't it be a a pull out push on sort of thing, or maybe it's just to void people off
from doing internal work themselves?

Custom, well since it looks like I can't remove my shaft from the front (right?) I am limited to only changing
the front bearing, in which I will get that NSK one, bearing shop has one in stock.

NSK 6205NR is on the front of the VS balance shaft I pulled out. I Have the pics above.
I am certain it is the same for both anyway.
Holden may call it a different balance shaft But they can call a fish an apple if they want.

The shaft and all sizes for fitment are the same on my series 1 buick which was from a 88 VN donor car.
The difference and only difference is a needle bearing at the back on the old (VN) and a bush on the new (VS/ ecotec).

Same size for both and either would work but I'd be inpecting that the added journal for the bush wasn't going to cause issues if you went for a needle bearing at the back. Icould confirm that if you did want to go for bearing.

If you ask me why would they change to a bush when they had a needle bearing???. I would Always go for a bearing over a bush. (especially this needle bearing)
Only secial equipment is a "press" to get a safe and undammaged fit.

I put new bushes in for the cam on my "VN" buick when rebuilding it. That requires"special" equipment too. I made my own "press" with a sterdy bolt and found the right sized sockets to fit them. No problems.
The bush and/or bearing goes in tight and needs pressing in.
Again when I do mine I will make another long threadbar and sockets type tool for the job. The front is not as bad and should tap on nicely. (ANd is same for VN & VS)
I can confirm that if you want with this one here if your not convinced. (do a remove and refit).

 

[Z2TT]

Interesting the conflicting info jzw you say no Buick had the needle/roller on the rear custom you say it did?

Since we sort of have the front figured out, lets forget that for now.

For the rear custom you say Buick=roller/needle Ecotec=bush.

jzw not sure on what you mean when you compare both engines, are both bushes the same on the rear,
or is one of the bushes on the buick different and more prone to becoming stupidly noisy?

If indeed they BOTH do have a bush on the rear, on the ecotec which bush could you swap it to if you want
to put a new one in.... I guess if I took a motor apart i'd understand better but without having 2 spare motors
bit harder.

Custom I cant see your pics that you posted earlier i press on the link and it doesnt show up.

Cheers anyway guys.

 

[Customcreations]

Ah so both Buick and Ecotec are bush rear and your needle/roller bearing that you bought will fit both well?
Will there be any problem with oiling etc by fitting a roller to the rear or excessive noise?

Buick series 1 3800.(eg early VN). Buick Ecotec same engingine with certain changes but many same parts.
Buick pre ecotec was only Needle bearing rear. Buick Ecotec Only bush rear but same sized balance shaft. So I or We are talking about converting back to needle bearing rear on the Ecotec.


What is this copper ring in there that is on the rear that was mentioned a while ago?[/QUOTE]


Copper ring is the BUSH style system that was put there to replace the previous model buick series 1 Needle bearing.
In my opinion a step backwards.

Having just replaced the back plate/rear crank seal housing.
I can see the journal hole that holden added to the ecotec for the pressure release.
It basically is just a hole they drilled through on an angle into the machined area for the bush to sit.
Then a machined channel in the back plate which takes it back into the block for a quick journey/journal :HaHa: to the sump.
Though I want to confirm it is the end of the road instead of guessing. They (holden/ GM) added the plate to convert to a rubber crank seal instead of the Rope seal system. ( I bet the did it because when changing to back plate it interfered with their plans so hey presto. Bush and divert???) Just a wild guess.
No cash bets :HeHe:

That (the drilled hole) would need plugging (if poss) (I would use a tap to thread the hole then plug it with a bolt) to fit a needle bearing back in to replace the bush with a bearing.
Reason being that the needle bearing was obviously the last port of call for the oil pressure system and would allow the oil to pass through it and make its way down through the drain holes in the "valley area" (anyone can rectify that frase as I'm not sure of the correct name for it)

(BRAIN SNAP) wouldn't that mean that the now diverted oil in the ecotec would contribute to less oil in the valley area to rins it out and possibly creat more "black death" carbon deposits???

How does this sound

 

[Customcreations]

I can give pics of the plate internally as I took snaps by chance to show how shotty a system it is.