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Marinising a 304

Discussion in 'V8 Development and Modification' started by VK SL 3800, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Im putting a 304 roller cam engine into a ski boat. Has a 308 but the old engine is a bit tired.

    Theres not a lot of information on how to marinise a 304 exactly, I've got it pretty well sorted i think but after some opinions of people who have done it and what mistakes can be made etc.
    Basically i am copying the 308s cooling system, blanking off the thermostat and going to tap some 1/2 fittings into the rear cylinder head disch
    arge in the intake manifold. I believe this is d
    one because of the angle the engine sits so you dont get a massive airlock at the rear.
    Im going to fit a thermostatic control as well.

    The old sump also has a basic oil cooler, just
    a 3/4 pipe inside the sump submerged in oil. Its plumbed on the suction side of the water pump and the raw water gets drawn through before getting to the pump. It wasnt connected to the 308 but i was thinking i might as well hook it up.
    Is it worthwhile having?

    I bought a VS SIII ute, its a 2000 model. Its says its a 195i but i dont know how to confirm that.
    v8_zpsakr2k4yx.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  2. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    304/308 are the same block, assuming both are turbo pattern. So you shouldn’t have any issues there.

    195i has VN prefix block, standard roller cam engines have VM prefix. Slight difference in cam profile and different tune.
     
  3. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Ill have a look at the prefix when i pull it out, the old 308 is trimatic pattern so ill have to redrill the bellhousing or buy a new one.
     
  4. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Pulled the engine out, looks like VM prefix will have to clean to read it properly.

    IMG_20180226_194310_zpsckcksnfj.jpg


    Heres the rear coolant port in the manifold i have to tap out, its flat so that should make it easier to drill. 1/2 fitting will be a tight squeeze, might be better off getting a 1/2 outlet tig welded in not sure.

    IMG_20180226_204439_zpskx32nyzc.jpg IMG_20180226_204428_zpsfkncyodh.jpg

    The manifold gaskets have been leaking, the utes been sitting a while and it appears the coolant has just slowly leaked in.
     
  5. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    I’d try to investigate the cooling system a little more. Being so close to the corner of the manifold you’re probably better off having a fitting welded in as you suggested, but that means you’d need to pay to have it resurfaced too since it’ll warp the faces.

    What are you doing for engine management? Is efi the reason you’re doing the conversion, or is the 308 just tired?

    Best way is to redrill the block to trimatic pattern but that also involves filling two holes and redrilling. An adaptor plate is another option if you have the ability to space things out. Adaptor plates are supposedly nowhere near as bad as they’re made out to be, but I don’t have any first hand experience with them so can’t say for sure.

    Also, check the lifter retainer plate for cracks or damage - that’s the major cause of engine failure for the roller cammed engines. And if you can be bothered at this stage, the code on the memcal will give you an idea of whether the engine ‘should’ have been the 195i and not the 179 (probably been replaced at some stage if it’s a factory 195i).
     
  6. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    308 had the oil pickup come loose, oil pressure gauge wasnt working and the old owner have been running it on low oil pressure so all the bearings are buggered, pistons are ok still. It actually ran pretty well, no flat spots etc but id like something a bit nicer and a mate had the ute and sold it to me for a good price.

    Ive decided to buy a whole new marinising kit for the 304, the dog clutch was worn out, bellhousing mounts are different, manifolds dont swap. Itll be better to have it all new and reliable then trying to patch up worn out crap.

    Ive sent The1 a message about getting the Vats deleted but he must be away, hoping you can also turn off the 02 sensor and maybe lower the desired idle speed a bit so the dog clutch is a bit less crunchy to engage if you have to take it out and put in when running.

    I will post some pics when i get more done for future reference, i cant find much information out there on marinising 304s so it might be handy for others.
     
  7. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    Best off selling the loom/pcm from that one and going with an 808 or 424 map based system in that case.

    Probably don’t need sequential injection and a maf in a boat lol. I know the older models like vn etc didn’t have o2 sensors enabled in the tune so that shouldn’t be an issue.

    Not sure what you’d do on the VSS side of things in the tune, but I’d like to know. @delcowizzid you there? Lol
     
  8. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Im gonna see how the MAF system goes seeing as i have it.
    The VSS shouldnt be a problem, im just leaving the sensor plugged in and it should be fine. In theory its the same as reving it on the spot but with some load, see what it does.
    I had the VATS turned off, the O2 sensor code deactivated and the desired idle speed reduced to about 650rpm to aid with dog clutch engagement.

    Ive had the intake manifold done, just waiting on the exhaust manifolds and a new dog clutch to arrive then i can put it in and test!
    IMG_20180331_094133_zpsiwowlgba.jpg

    IMG_20180331_094139_zpsce4enq0z.jpg
     
  9. RiCeY

    RiCeY F O R U M W A R R I O R

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    First Commodore that's meant to handle like a boat.
     
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  10. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Nearly got this ready to go in, been waiting on a few bits and pieces and they showed up today.
    Dog clutch involved a lot of drilling into the crank which seems sketchy, worked out fine in the end.
    IMG_20180415_170249.jpg

    Have to work out the thermal control setup with a bit of trial and error i think. I can use the front heater hose outlet as a discharge if the 2 1/2'' outlets in the manifold dont flow enough.

    Currently not sure how the water pump is going to fit, have to wait and see how much room there is with it in.

    Been Busy with the hull in the meantime:
    IMG_20180217_181927.jpg IMG_20180219_215233.jpg IMG_20180313_104209.jpg
    Found a rotten section of stringer, not sure why it rotted up the front but the rest was ok so we just cut down to good timber and put in a new section and bolted a reinforcing beam on the back well past both ends of the repair.
    My Fiber glassing wasnt the best but itll seal it all together nice and strong.
     

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  11. gtrboyy

    gtrboyy Active Member

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    Engine is just base model 179kw has no hsv headers or intake/memcal.

    Doesn't make much difference once you fit better exhaust/airbox & good memcal tune.

    Will run better with airbox as that's where IAT is fitted

    Will run no speed sensor but will throw up intermittent fault when at constant cruising rev...speed sensor is bolted up onto extension housing & slip yoke has ring gear on it so might be able to adapt it somehow.

    Had similar in torrie no speed sensor.
     
  12. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Im just going to plug the speed sensor in and it just wont read anything.

    Im not sure if im going to run an air filter, see how much room i have. The IAT i had planned on mounting near the maf. A lot of boats ive looked at dont run a filter and the maf has a screen for big foreign objects so that might be ok.

    I got the engine in, just have to wire it all up and sort a few dumb problems.
    31543707_10155870416556919_7517355638985326592_n.jpg
     
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  13. Bigfella237

    Bigfella237 Active Member

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    So are you still drawing most of the coolant out the front of the motor through the thermostat housing?

    A typical cooling system has coolant going in through the water pump, around the cylinder walls to the back of the block, then up into the cylinder heads and forward around all the valves and exhaust ports, then out through the thermostat at the front.

    If you block that off altogether then you won't have any coolant circulating through the cylinder heads where it's needed the most.

    All my boats have had heat exchangers, which are a closed system, meaning the sea water is not pumped through the engine at all, well except for the exhaust manifolds.

    And how does that drive attach to the front of the crankshaft? Surely it can't rely on the standard woodruff key to transfer the entire engine's power to the prop?

    Andrew
     
  14. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    The std thermostat port is blanked, ive taped into the discharge at the rear of the heads instead, Im pretty sure the only reason they do this is to stop you getting a big air lock and getting a hot spot at the rear of the heads. I know what your saying, but i dont know whether it will make much difference which end you discharge from as far as the the flow. I was planning on using the heater hose outlet in the front of the manifold as an extra discharge so you get some more flow around that area.

    In a car the coolant can get to bore no 1 and then go straight up through the head gasket and then out the front of the head discharge to the thermostat, there nothing that actually makes it go all the way to the rear other then the restriction to flow through the gasket ports.

    All other dog clutch setups ive been looking at run the rear discharge system so you would like to think that its cooling the heads sufficiently.

    Boats with V drives or Velvet boxes have the engine sit more level so they probably dont need to do that but im no expert.

    The drive has a sleeve lightly pressed onto the crank lining up with the original key but then you drill the opposite side and fit a 10mm pin (half drilled the crank and the other half into the sleeve so your crank ends up with a 5mm deep half moon if that makes sense). Then it has a couple of grub screws from the sides.

    Seems like you take a lot of meat out of the nose to me but i guess they know what they are doing.
     
  15. Deuce

    Deuce Super Stock

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    Correction; the block does not have large openings to the head at the front of cyl's 1&2. A few small holes along the way down the block deck face, but 2 large openings at the rear.
    So yes, water is forced to 80% go through the block before entering the heads.
     
  16. Bigfella237

    Bigfella237 Active Member

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    It was proven over on the Holley forum where somebody fitted two temp sensors to the same cylinder head, one at the front, one at the rear, and the rear sensor read significantly lower than the front (I can't remember the exact figure but it was something like 20°C in a typical closed system).

    I know what you're saying about the angle of the engine and I agree that it does need some kind of "air bleed" outlet at the rear to prevent bubbles being trapped there, much like the "steam ports" in an LS motor, but most of the heat in an engine is generated in the cylinder heads so it stands to reason that most of the coolant should flow through them as well?

    Andrew
     
  17. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Ive never noticed that, so realistically the heads should be removed and the front ports should be enlarged slightly. Not sure how that will effect how it flows overall with large rears as well.


    This is why i thought i should connect the heater hose discharge under the thermostat to allow more water to flow through the front as it would normally.
    From my limited experience with boats, trying to keep the engine warm was a bigger of a challenge then keeping them cool. A lot ive looked at didnt run any sort of thermal control at all so the engine ran at like 50c all the time which is not the best for it.

    My temp gauge is still down the front so i should see if the front isnt getting enough cooling first which is a plus.
     
  18. Bigfella237

    Bigfella237 Active Member

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    There are no front ports in the block at all (there are in the heads because they're designed to be a universal fit, left to right). If I remember correctly, on each side of the deck there are three smaller passages between the cylinders and two large slots at the very back of the block.

    The problem with changing the factory design is that you create 'short cuts' for the coolant to bypass certain areas of the engine. Water will follow the easiest path, if it can go in the front of the block and then straight up and out the front of the heads it will, leaving the back of the engine with poor to no circulation.

    If you were to create front passages, you would have to block off the rear passages, but then you would have to feed water into the engine from the back of the block otherwise the rear-most cylinder walls wouldn't see any coolant flow?

    I'm not trying to argue with you, but it seems like you're trying to re-invent the wheel just to save a metre of pipe?

    Andrew
     
  19. VK SL 3800

    VK SL 3800 Well-Known Member

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    Im thinking because the pump is positive displacement it will push water out front and back hoses and give enough flow to keep it all cool, will just see what it does and modify if needed.
    32901483_10155911796826919_2651871645030940672_n.jpg

    Had the engine running, wiring is mostly done. Have to sort out the exhaust and alternator mounting next.
    Water pump was the biggest headache so far, it looks simple now but i ended up using the old 308 pulley snout on the crank as it sticks out further and it was just enough to mount the pump with its pulley all the way in, its all very close with the seat back but all fits.
     
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