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New Exhaust Droning Bad

panhead

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Yeah, would be interesting indeed but possibly irrelevant.

For example, if an owner pops into workshop and asks for nicer v8 rumbling sound and is sold a package for a road car that drones like crazy, the fact it fails to meet emissions doesn't bode well for the seller's case unless such was stated in the sales documents.

Even if the seller clearly stated the exhaust illegality issue prior to selling his wares, the judge may take a dim view of the sellers actions despite the both parties having unclean hands... But as always it may depend on how the judge feels on the day (and whether he's had some argument with his wife and your the sounding board to his anger)...

It's why I always have any specific requirements noted on the quote and/or order.

If it's not advertised as no drone I'd have 'supply and fit exhaust without drone' on the order.

A good shop will look after you, a bad one will tell you to bugger off.






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Thomas_D

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I'm mid-way through dinner preps but I feel the need to interject at this point in time.
I appreciate all the input fellas, it is greatly appreciated and a solution will be found one way or another.
I'm a little uneasy with talk of courts and legalities. As a fellow Aussie I want this exhaust shop/manufacturer to do well and prosper. To this point they've tried what they can to remedy the situation.
Back soon
 

Not_An_Abba_Fan

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Yeah, would be interesting indeed but possibly irrelevant.

For example, if an owner pops into workshop and asks for nicer v8 rumbling sound and is sold a package for a road car that drones like crazy, the fact it fails to meet emissions doesn't bode well for the seller's case unless such was stated in the sales documents.

Even if the seller clearly stated the exhaust illegality issue prior to selling his wares, the judge may take a dim view of the sellers actions despite the both parties having unclean hands... But as always it may depend on how the judge feels on the day (and whether he's had some argument with his wife and your the sounding board to his anger)...

The onus is always on the end user unless the product is "unfit for purpose", IE fitting a tooth brush as a muffler. Does it move the exhaust gas from the engine to the rear of the car? Yes, then it's fit for purpose, the fact that the buyer doesn't like the noise is irrelevant. The legalites of the construction and noise is also on the end user, as with most performance parts that are illegal to use on the road, they are legal to buy.
 

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The onus is always on the end user unless the product is "unfit for purpose", IE fitting a tooth brush as a muffler. Does it move the exhaust gas from the engine to the rear of the car? Yes, then it's fit for purpose, the fact that the buyer doesn't like the noise is irrelevant. The legalites of the construction and noise is also on the end user, as with most performance parts that are illegal to use on the road, they are legal to buy.
You have it wrong as there is no such onus on the buyer... the onus is on the seller to meet their ACL obligations. The seller is obliged under law to meet the statutory warranty/consumer guarantee as defined within the legislation. It's an interestinmg read for some but not for others. Luckily the ACCC site simplifies the jargon and lists the following:

Products must be of acceptable quality, that is:
  • safe, lasting, with no faults
  • look acceptable
  • do all the things someone would normally expect them to do.
Acceptable quality takes into account what would normally be expected for the type of product and cost.

Products must:
  • match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising
  • match any demonstration model or sample you asked for
  • be fit for the purpose the business told you it would be fit for and for any purpose that you made known to the business before purchasing
  • come with full title and ownership
  • not carry any hidden debts or extra charges
  • come with undisturbed possession, so no one has a right to take the goods away or prevent you from using them
  • meet any extra promises made about performance, condition and quality, such as life time guarantees and money back offers
  • have spare parts and repair facilities available for a reasonable time after purchase unless you were told otherwise.
All exhausts would take exhaust gasses from the engine to the rear of the vehicle but a normal person would also have a few added expectations. Asthetics may be one expectation. Not getting a drone induced headache when driving may be another expectation.

On that noise issue alone, the business would fail to meet their ACL obligations of acceptable quality unless they buyer was forwarned... Selling performance parts doesn't automatically equal to illegal or to absurd NVH levels. Just drive any powerful european performance car and one will quickly realise that.

If the business sells any item and especially if it is not clarified that the item is not fit for road use, then the seller is on the hook as far as ACL is conserned. Heck, even selling performance parts for actuall racing vehicles in track situations is covered under ACL (as any product sold in Auz).

Simply selling performance parts does not equate to a get out of ACL escape clause...
 

Not_An_Abba_Fan

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Everything there applies to what I said. An exhaust system's purpose is to get the exhaust gas from the engine to the rear of the vehicle. It is supposed to meet or exceed ADR's and statutory regulations. Just because it drones does not make it unfit for purpose. It's a "performance" exhaust. It probably is illegal as far as noise goes. However, the onus is still on the end user to ensure that the car is legal and roadworthy not the seller of the exhaust system.
 

Skylarking

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... I'm a little uneasy with talk of courts and legalities. As a fellow Aussie I want this exhaust shop/manufacturer to do well and prosper. To this point they've tried what they can to remedy the situation.
Back soon
Discussing such ACL issues doesn't mean your supplier has actually done anything wrong. By the sounds of it, they are helping you with your issue. So if you're happy with their service, that's what matters :cool: And good on you for supporting a local business (which in these pandemic times is needed) :)

But briefly discussing such ACL stuff may help someone else who stumbles on this thread some time in the future. That someone who has payed $$$ for a complete exhaust and sufferes maddening drone but their supplier washes their hands of the situation unless they fork out more $$ may appreciate the heads up (and the other avenue they could persue if their supplier plays hardball and refuses to resolve the issue).
 

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Everything there applies to what I said. An exhaust system's purpose is to get the exhaust gas from the engine to the rear of the vehicle. It is supposed to meet or exceed ADR's and statutory regulations. Just because it drones does not make it unfit for purpose. It's a "performance" exhaust. It probably is illegal as far as noise goes. However, the onus is still on the end user to ensure that the car is legal and roadworthy not the seller of the exhaust system.
In my view, still wrong on teh ACL front...
 

Thomas_D

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Discussing such ACL issues doesn't mean your supplier has actually done anything wrong. By the sounds of it, they are helping you with your issue. So if you're happy with their service, that's what matters :cool: And good on you for supporting a local business (which in these pandemic times is needed) :)

But briefly discussing such ACL stuff may help someone else who stumbles on this thread some time in the future. That someone who has payed $$$ for a complete exhaust and sufferes maddening drone but their supplier washes their hands of the situation unless they fork out more $$ may appreciate the heads up (and the other avenue they could persue if their supplier plays hardball and refuses to resolve the issue).
You make some valid points SL

Summary:
1: After some discussion with my mechanic/tuner I chose and had fitted a full system, 1 3/4 extractors, high-flow cats (100 cell), 3 inch catback + highflow rear mufflers + bi-modals. In hindsight I didn't do my homework and should've questioned more. I expected it to be loud and it was, but buying blind carries some risks. The 3 inch system sounded impressive in both open and closed mode but droned badly between 1600 - 2200rpm

2: Took it back to the exhaust shop, they fitted a 2 1/2 system with "quiet" rear mufflers. This change reduced the overall volume by about 30% but droned just as bad, particularly bad between 1800 to 2200 rpm. Sixth gear at 110kph on the freeway sits around 2000rpm, horrible.

3: Back to the shop again, fitted more restrictive rear mufflers(AFM)? Result, the overall volume has decreased again by about another 30%,
drones a little less but still horrible between 1800 - 2200rpm. I still like the sound (except between 1800-2200)however the volume levels have now dropped by 50 to 60% and any more significant drop in volume will more closely resemble the factory system, which essentially renders the catback change a pointless excercise.

It would appear obvious by the above that the rear mufflers are not really the problem, sure they decrease the overall volume but do not attenuate the drone. I planned to have my factory rear mufflers fitted if step 3 failed but I suspect it will be quieter again and the drone will remain. NAAF pretty much aluded to this when he said the merge collector is the issue.

It'll be back to the shop again for further mods, hopefully not another rear muffler change.
FYI I must take some responsibility as I'm aware all aftermarket exhausts do not meet adr and as such are sold as off-street/track use.
The exhaust shop, despite having not yet solved my issue have complied without question by my requests for a fix. It does surprise that they haven't suggested a front muffler as NAAF stated, maybe I should tell them, but as a somewhat uninformed customer it would feel odd streering them towards the path of a fix.
 

panhead

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The exhaust shop, despite having not yet solved my issue have complied without question by my requests for a fix. It does surprise that they haven't suggested a front muffler as NAAF stated, maybe I should tell them, but as a somewhat uninformed customer it would feel odd streering them towards the path of a fix.

Don't be shy, ask them is there any other part of the exhaust system that may be contributing to the drone?

That's a very basic question even a novice can ask.

If they say no then take the vehicle to someone else.

A few of questions:
Are you paying for these changes to fault find the problem?
Are they only responding to your requests to change the pipe diameter and rear cans to fix the drone or is it their idea as well?
Have they offered any solutions that don't involve changing the above?


My solution, put a big cam in it and your ears will be diverted from the drone.




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Thomas_D

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Don't be shy, ask them is there any other part of the exhaust system that may be contributing to the drone?

That's a very basic question even a novice can ask.

If they say no then take the vehicle to someone else.

A few of questions:
Are you paying for these changes to fault find the problem?
Are they only responding to your requests to change the pipe diameter and rear cans to fix the drone or is it their idea as well?
Have they offered any solutions that don't involve changing the above?


My solution, put a big cam in it and your ears will be diverted from the drone.




.
No charge for the changes thus far.
I haven't suggested anything yet, although I will. I've left it up to them and they've taken the path as described above.
I'd love to put a big cam in it , might be on the cards for end of year. Hopefully I can resolve this first.
 
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