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New XR8 vs VF SSV/Redline for price

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by Cruzer, Jul 26, 2014.

  1. Cruzer

    Cruzer Member

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    Does anyone have an idea as to what the new XR8 will be selling for? The few articles ive read say it may be 45-50k which for the powerplant is quite attractive for some I guess, Considering the power figures are well more then the current 260/270kw Redline would this encourage either a price check for the redline or maybe the 6.2lt SSV that has been hinted at before for the My15 update,

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. christov

    christov RFFN RFFR

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    Yep, Ford near me quoted me a 'tentative price' of 55k drive away, with leather and sat nav. That being said, this was 4 months ago when I bought my Redline, and the salesman admitted that even though I'd be paying a deposit on a 'tentative' price, their was no gaurantee or confirmation that the price agreed to was going to be accurate.

    IMO all you would be buying is an FG XR8 with a 335kw coyote motor, which is one sexy peice of machinery!

    Much more power than our SS's however the suspension is dated, the brakes are dated, the interior is very very very dated, and even the ZF 6 speed gearbox lacks innovation and is a bit of a slug compared to the TR6060 in the VF.
     
  3. GH05T

    GH05T New Member

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    i couldnt deal with that interior, i couldnt deal with that trans.
     
  4. AirStrike

    AirStrike Administrator Staff Member

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    Why are you comparing an auto to a manual? The FG runs the TR6060, it actually had it before the Holden.
    They both run an IRS rear end, the front end in the FG is a double control arm vs MacPherson in the Holden...................I know which is more 'dated'.
    Brembo's are dated?

    I like both cars, just can't stand one eyed people talking rubbish.
     
  5. bretto86

    bretto86 New Member

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    Haha, was wondering the same.
    & I love a manual box but in a straight line the auto will generally be quicker.
    & when it comes to Holdens auto vs Fords I have to say the ZF box that Ford run is likely a better unit.

    I rebuild them for a living & while they have small inherent problems they are a great piece of gear...
    Run in BMW, Jaguar, Bentley & many others
     
  6. GH05T

    GH05T New Member

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    in a nutshell, for me anyway,

    good
    [​IMG]

    Bad
    [​IMG]
     
  7. AirStrike

    AirStrike Administrator Staff Member

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    That's the FG interior and the new model exterior. Might as well put pics of a VE Series I interior with a VF, same deal.
     
  8. cashie

    cashie Active Member

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    Interior is going to be tweaked, likely get Ford Sync. Will look much better than FG, not likely to get all the gadgets of the VF (self park, cross traffic radar, electric steering etc) but it's going to be a bang for your bucks type of car.
    If they release a "budget" priced XR8 I will seriously look at one.
    Haven't heard many people bag the ZF transmission, mighty fine piece of gear (if you keep the engine coolant out of the transmission).
     
  9. Flukey

    Flukey New Member

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    Up until late last year when I bought the Redline, I have always driven Fords.
    To me, the only good things about the "new" Falcon are the engine and the transmission, both of which are better than what I have now.
    The car overall is still very dated and I wouldn't buy one.
     
  10. christov

    christov RFFN RFFR

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    You're right, I did get the gearbox wrong, one eyed however, no.

    My second last car was an FG mk 2 XR6 (sorry no turbo), and in direct comparison without getting technical as I have NFI what the difference between a double control arm or MacPherson strut is. I can say having owned both - not just one, that the redline is sharper and has more feel with the suspension, much more feel and power in the brakes, and the automatic gearbox whatever the code is, is a lot lot lot lot better than the ZF6 speed I had in my XR6 - which broke and seized in first gear, and Ford said to me that they had a 15% failure rate, despite being used in other cars.

    You also fail to mention anything other than my technical ineptitude, is the interior up to par with even the VE? Nope, anyone who's owned both knows that.

    Does a one eyed person call the coyote a sexy piece of machinery?

    Seems to me that you sir, may be the one eyed person.

    I've owned both - you haven't, so go research whatever you like, but I have the drivers perspective and the redline far exceeds the FG XR range.
     
  11. duaned

    duaned Active Member

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    I have been a Ford owner for the past 18 years (my last a FG XR6) and the VF is my first Holden. I personally don't give a crap how old the suspension is or is not. The VF has it all over the Falcon in the handling dept. Granted, my last 3 Fords had the ZF and it is a great box, but it doesn't rev match like the VF! As for smoothness, well I cant tell the difference! I hope the new Falcon sells well, as it does have a good drivetrain (bushes aside) but from all reports the interior will not be a patch on the VF. It's not just about how fast it does the quarter, it's about the whole package. Shame is just the power all the hoons are attracted to.
     
  12. Benzito

    Benzito New Member

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    I have always been a Ford man, but I totally agree with you christov. It's the reason I bought my first ever Holden a few months ago. ;) A series 1 VE.
    I was looking at V8 utes but the FG ute is just ugly looking from side, and rear, on compared to the VEs. The interior also seemed very cheap and dinky to me, whereas even the S1 VE just seemed to have a bit more luxury to it. The transmissions didn't factor in to it for me because I was after a manual. But all I can say is, everyone who knows me is so surprised to see me driving a Holden and I think that speaks a lot about how sub-par Ford's offerings have been since the BA/BF line. I never thought I would own a Holden either!

    And that new XR8 that GHO5T posted above is the ugliest thing I have seen come out of ford since the EA! I hadn't seen pics of the new Falcons but I am horrified. It is trying to be a mustang, but failing miserably. Henry Ford is rolling in his grave.:undead:
     
  13. Davison

    Davison Active Member

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    To set a few facts straight...

    Yes they both have IRS rear ends. The Ford's CB IRS is not great. The diff bush issues alone are a deal breaker. Having the diff cradle ripped out every service is ridiculous. Up until 2012 (before the revised the design) the diff cradles also tore in half, even in stock cars. They tend to suffer from axle tramp (bit of a lottery), they don't like putting power down, there's no predictability in the rear end- when it goes, it goes quickly and without warning. Overall, not a nice setup. The AU's IRS was nicer, apparently the CB IRS concept was originally designed for front drive applications. VE/F's rear end is on another level.

    The front suspension. Yes, the Ford has double A arms, technically more advanced than the Holden front end. The same way the 5.4 XR8s were a more advanced engine than the LS engines- in the real world it didn't matter. The FG is a long chassis with a short wheelbase. There's too much mass over the front end so they end up feeling very heavy up front and are far less pointy. They'll understeer much sooner than a VE at the limit. Then there's the bushes to consider. The bushes used in the front end of FGs are very average. They tend to wear and perish very quickly- particularly the forward lower control arm bushes which perfectly imitate the symptoms of brake shudder when they move excessively under brakes. This means you'll end up chasing your tail with rotor and hub runout when in reality it's the control arm bushes that are your problem - except you generally cannot replicate the excessive movement on a hoist (Ford techs will just machine the rotors and send you on your way). So the $500 you'll spend on bush replacements is generally a leap of faith and might not be the issue because the upper control arm bushes behave in exactly the same way. Ford actually silently recalled the first batch of Brembo equipped FG FPVs because they were shuddering from the upper control arm bushes from factory. Regular plebs doing brake upgrades needed to put washers in there to stop the movement. Yes, washers. So while FG's have a nicely designed front end, the chassis and bushes let it down. The VE front end by contrast is simpler, yet very effective. VF has also brought alloy components into the mix (which Ford have been utilising since 2008).

    Then the gearbox. The Holden auto is NOT significantly better than the ZF auto. The ZF is quicker to react and drops gears faster than the 6L80. I believe the 6HP26 can skip 2 gears at a time- or at least it feels like it. The 6L80 gets points back with its superior sports mode (more aggressive) and rev matched down shifts. The ZF auto also has issues that Ford has not bothered to address in years. The lurching plagues some cars, some it doesn't. It's a lottery, but when you have it, it sucks really badly. Then there's the heat exchanger issues which are still a common failure- lose the heat exchanger and you've lost the gearbox (or at least the mechatronics unit and you'll need a rebuild, say goodbye to 3-5 grand). Then once you start putting decent power through the ZF, you risk breaking the input shaft. Nizpro will do a replacement shaft but again, prepare to open your wallet. So overall, the ZF is a good box but bettered by the 6L80 at the moment in my opinion. For crispness of gear changes, the ZF still has it sewn up.

    Then the Miami engine. Great thing, needs an intercooler. After a few hits you can feel the power falling away. Then you have the morons who tune them. I say morons, because they're generally aware how high the intake temperatures are rising to, but they see the 380rwkw on their dyno sheet and forget about reliability. Yes, they'll make a lot of power with a tune. But if you make use of that power regularly (ie, you're a bit of a hoon), you'll need an intercooler, input shaft (auto) and other driveline bits to keep it reliable. There are plenty of tuned Miamis that have popped. Just as many ZF autos behind tuned Miamis that have popped too.

    As far as brakes go, the CGI of the XR8 shows standard sliding calipers. Big mistake if they intend to charge more for the Brembos, as the standard Ford brakes are garbage. Soft pedal and constant rotor warping- the XR8 (in 335 tune at least) needs Brembos, otherwise you're going to hate it.

    The interior of the new Falcon. It's the same deal as the FG, just with revised button functions on the existing ICC with the Sync interface replacing the ageing bespoke Ford Australia system that's in there. The driving position will continue to be uncomfortable for tall people (or anyone who wants to sit low in the car for enthusiastic driving), the dash will still be made out of low grade plastics. They've added some stitching to the existing door trims and rumour is the roof lining will be black in some models. It's just a lightly tickled FG interior and while good (as in functional), it will continue to be bettered by the VF interior in every department except A pillar visibility.

    So to me, this new XR8 will still be a one-trick pony. It will go fast in a straight line and be bettered by the VF in practically every other area. Even if they gave the XR8 500kw, there are too many deal breakers in the mechanical package (and not to mention the interior) to consider buying one over a Redline- in my opinion. Power isn't hard to come by with the 6L anyway. Fixing all of the flaws with the existing FG package, however, is a much harder task- bordering on impossible.
     
  14. AirStrike

    AirStrike Administrator Staff Member

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    Comparing a set of standard calipers (the N/A having a smaller setup to the turbo) to the redlines brembos, of course the redline is better.
    As for the ZF having an issue in yours doesn't mean you write the whole box off. Plenty of big power cars running a stock auto fine.
    Interior, gadget wise the VE Series II wins hands down. Appearance wise is subjective to the individual.
     
  15. AirStrike

    AirStrike Administrator Staff Member

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    Just quickly, ZF released a firmware update to fix the lurching ages ago.
    Heat exchanger is an issue, yes. Add a few earth straps, stops electrolysis and it getting eaten.
    Input shafts have been broken yes, but in big power cars, those tuned by someone who doesn't know what they are doing, or if driven in a non-friendly manner. Mine help up fine with 400rwkw, which I think is pretty damm good for a stock auto.

    As for this thread both cars have their merits, but can't really compare when the car isn't out yet :p
     
  16. Davison

    Davison Active Member

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    ZF software update was hit & miss. I've had all the PCM/TCM flashes and it still lurches. Even had a ZF rep look at it. It's not as bad as before, but it's still there. Enough to make me pre-plan my throttle application at roundabouts. Some lucky buggers never got it at all though. Luck of the draw.

    Regarding the heat exchangers, adding an earth strap isn't a proven fix. Some guys also put the KTM B series coolers on, but again, there's no evidence and paranoia is not fun. Being as unpredictable as they are (Some cars have had them fail at <5000km, other still going strong with approaching 200,000km) you'd need a huge number of cars and years to test it to get a definite answer. I personally wouldn't risk it. I bought a PWR cooler, cost an arm and a leg but it's shiny. Either way, it's something that Ford should have sorted by now and I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to be fixed with the second FG facelift.

    Input shafts are another lottery, like valvesprings. I agree it helps not to take all of the torque reduction out of them like some silly buggers do.
     
  17. FFAman

    FFAman New Member

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    FH XR8 gets brembo's, RSpec suspension and Staggered width Rims, so performance wise its a match for the Redline and will smash it in a straight line.

    Drive Away pricing isn't confirmed yet but the 45-50K talk is completely unrealistic.
     
  18. blackve76

    blackve76 Well-Known Member

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    The turbo six will still be 45>50K I recon

    XR8 will be more a ssv redine 55K

    If I could get a XR8 for 45K it would be my first ford....
     
  19. Flukey

    Flukey New Member

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    I guess you still cant get a factory roof in the Falcon either which pisses me off no end.
     
  20. Benzito

    Benzito New Member

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    Yeah, they are all convertibles. :p
     

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