rb20det or sr20det into vs commodore

[dons vs]

"you still got no chance unless you spent alot of cash turboing or super dooper charging your commo 6 or 8 hahaha"

ummm ok so i agree that the v6 isnt a horsepower factory, but are u saying that u cant get as much power out of an ls1/2 as u can out of a 2L 4cyl.....wtf?? i cant be bothered to describe how dumb your statement was...

in case u haven't realised yet this is a COMMODORE website...this is a site for people that like commodores....please go find a more suitable site for you. im sick of people coming on here just to stir up crap.

Of course you can amke a **** load of power from ls1/2 but you have to admit being able to make 1500hp from a 4cylinder is impressive right? or are you still going to use your uneducated answer of "no replacement for displacement"
Im well aware this is a commo forum and i didnt join to stir up ****, we have a vr ute as our work car to tow our drift cars around and i couldnt beleive how slow they are so i signed up to get some info on what i can do to it to get some more power as i cant stand driving around slugs.
To note you dont have to be so one track minded, there are other great cars out there you dont have to just like commodores, respect all car makers and there different technology and ideas of doing things.

Search for Fanga Dan, in the NZ Drift Circuit he's got a VY Exec with a RB26DETT

Don't get me wrong but there's no replacement for displacement.

Hows this for thought... How come they make stroker kits for these small 4 Cyl engines? if it didn't matter they wouldn't make the displacement bigger.

1. there is a replacement for displacement and thats called volumetric efficiency, something these v6's have no idea about, im guessing the word wasnt invented when they where designing them......
The hole idea of a turbo charger or supercharger is to increase the volumetric effieciency to 100% and over which an n/a can never get close to.
This is what makes power and makes an engine more efficient not increasing the size all your doing is chasing tails other wise.

and 2. yeah they make stroker kits for sr, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and 2.35 kits but the cost involed on fitting one outways the gains.
the kits alone for an 8 counterweight billet crank, forged or billet i beams or h beams and a set of forged pistons is around 4-6k from most manufactures, then you need new sleeves which are around 600, then you need someone to machine out the old sleeves from the block and fit the new ones with out them ****ing it up which can be another 1-1.5k
so your now down about 8k on your bottom end and you only have a slight advantage upon a 2lt. IMO the only real gains from stroking a 2lt is the increased response in boost and a increase in torque and outright hp from the increased rod angles and stroke.
all these things can simply be amended to in other cheaper ways like running more boost or upgrading your turbo and manifold design.
bigger displacement is not always the answer, its only a band aid fix to how **** the engine is designed.

 

[ScoHar]

regardless of turbos and superchargers etc, more displacement is going to create more power, I know its a very basic and loosely said saying but you have to agree that a 2L SR20DET with the same mods is going to produce less power/torque than the 2.2L stroker right?

and a band aid fix would be winding your boost up, not going to last long but will increase power alot right.

Your right there are cheaper ways to obtain power i.e flow figures, manifolds, **** even guide clearances and eliminating valve train harmonics etc etc but at the end of the day theres no replacement for displacement (money aside LOL)

What people tend to forget is the cost involved, cheaper parts, cheaper to make fast but that doesn't mean its superior talk to an engine builder they'll fill you in.

 

[dons vs]

i am an engine builder
the increased rod angles puts more stress on the mains caps as there not solid mounted to the block like other engines there floating, so increased angles can cause them to walk or bend.
the stroker also increases pistons speeds alot which is a no go for sr's, from factory there a nice square swept volume 86 stroke x 86 bore. in stock bore and stroke they have no troubles punching out 300-350kw and will rev all day to 8-9k with a solid lifter conversion some good valve springs and titnaium retainers from brin crower.
If you wanted to rev harder then the vvl head conversions will do 11,000rpm with a dual spring set up with some stronger valves.
Increasing boost isnt a band aid as your increase volumetric efficiency which is what your trying to do to make power, with turbo and super chargers you can actually exceed 100% which is why turbo cars make so much more power than non turbo's, its not because you bolt on this whirly thing and it adds 100kw there is science behind it.
mod for mod a 2.2lt will produce more power than a 2lt but the increase wont be much and its not worth spending the 8-10k on the bottom end to do so, and having an unreliable sr which can fall apart if revved to hard.
finding a bore and stroke combo thast works well then all you need to do is add a turbo to increase the ve to 100% and you have a perfect balanced engine that makes great power.
increasing the displacement more and more to get to that same power is a waste of money and materials, that said adding a turbo into the added displacement will make more power in the end.

VE is what you want people not displacement, i mean if mazworxs can make 1500hp from a 2.2lt then why cant you pull anything descent out of a 3.8lt? it has more displacement so why isnt it better?

 

[ScoHar]

VE is what you want people not displacement, i mean if mazworxs can make 1500hp from a 2.2lt then why cant you pull anything descent out of a 3.8lt? it has more displacement so why isnt it better?

Fair call, but why is the 1500hp SR20DET actually a 2.2L? why not a 2.0L? according to your argument the 2L should be able to do it too. There are too many variables for this argument and could go on forever, im not talking engine specific here.

 

[dons vs]

the 2.2lt that makes over 1500hp is actually a 90mm bore but still a standard crank out of a stock sr20det.
the rods where a aluminum/titanium alloy and the pistons where simply an overbore to 90mm over the standard 86mm.
that engine had darton wet sleeves installed in order to take it out to 90mm as the standard bores arnt thick enough.
So yeah displacement was increased but was bore not stroke, obviously the more displacement the more power it will make but it would never be able to get close with out a turbocharger being able to increase VE of the engine.
YouTube - Mazworx Drag S15 11,000 RPM video
YouTube - Brent rau vs. mazworx s15
YouTube - PRLracing / Mazworx Sivia S15 7.37@161 may3rd 2009 NSCRA

i agree the argument/debate could go on for ever hahaha im not trying to stir **** up, just giving my opinion based on my research and experience of years in the trade, rather than what my second cousins brother saw.

 

[(CODEZ)]

i reckon for a rice conversion, RB26 or a 2JZ

 

[dons vs]

i reckon for a rice conversion, RB26 or a 2JZ

both are very expensive to get a hold of, your better off getting an rb25 plenty of them around there not so expensive and there is plenty of spares for them.
a descent rb25 will still through down 200-300kw with out much troubles.

 

[TUF UTE]

i will throw things at u if u put a sr in a commo

rb 25 or 1J/2J are the most worthwhile options

 

[ScoHar]

i agree the argument/debate could go on for ever hahaha im not trying to stir **** up, just giving my opinion based on my research and experience of years in the trade, rather than what my second cousins brother saw.

Its was a loosly based saying that has been round for years, and like you I know where your coming from and used to argue the point until I kept loosing but the fact is that even if your putting turbos etc on an engine its increasing compression ratio to a point (as you will know from diesels) similar to its displacement.

But for this conversion I don't think the SR would have any bulls in a car this big, been in a few cefiros and laurels with SR's and they don't seem to go as good as the RB20+ but the weight is more manageable with an SR.

 

[dons vs]

Its was a loosly based saying that has been round for years, and like you I know where your coming from and used to argue the point until I kept loosing but the fact is that even if your putting turbos etc on an engine its increasing compression ratio to a point (as you will know from diesels) similar to its displacement.

But for this conversion I don't think the SR would have any bulls in a car this big, been in a few cefiros and laurels with SR's and they don't seem to go as good as the RB20+ but the weight is more manageable with an SR.

not entirely true, the static CR will always stay the same, only the dynamic cr will change but since dynamic cr is generally on crank well then there is no boost so its normally the same as a naturally aspirated anyway.
To put it in the most basic terms possible.
a naturally aspirated may have a displacement of say 2000cc but because its only relying on the engines ability to suck the air in it may only fill to say 1200cc or at its most efficient point maybe up around 1500cc, but when the air is forced in under pressure then you can be sure to fill the 2000cc so your actually getting 2000cc of wack on your piston, that is 100% volumetric efficiency, run more boost with larger cfm turbocharger and you can squeeze in 2500cc worth of air into a 2000cc chamber this is increasing the VE to 125% so its going to have even more of a wack on the pistons.
for an N/A to have the same amount of force onto a piston as above it would have to be a 3000cc engine, then lays the problem of component size and weights, obviously the bigger everyhting is the more it weighs to the more amount of energy is required to force that piston with the same amount of engergy as the smaller 2000cc with forced app, so you would need even more displacment again.
hence the answer there is a replacement for displacement and its called turbochargers.

with the comparison between the sr and the v6 on the other page they may be quite similar in power and torque from factory, but stick a better exhaust onto the v6 and what do you get? maybe 3-4kw?, stick a better exhaust onto an sr and you may get 10kw.
stick a bigger t/b, memcal and cold air intake onto the v6 and make maybe 5-10kw, put a fmic and a bleed valve onto an sr and make another 25kw.
an sr will respond very well to modifications and its quite easy to make around 250kw atw on an unopened sr with simple bolt ons, turbo upgrade and a descent ecu.
If you wonder on into nissansilvia.com a mate of mine from powerplay in NSW is doing some research and development on there work s14 and they have spent bugger all on modding it with a bigger turbo fuel system and ecu and its making 270kw. stock camshafts, stock bottom end everything just a few bolt ons.
i havent looked that hard yet but i havent seen any v6's making much over 150kw with out changing the camshaft and even witha cam upgrade the gains dont seem worth while the effort.

sorry man im getting way off now hahaha, i agree that an sr doesnt belong in a commodore............................there to good for a commodore hahaha jokes.