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Rear cross member front mount bolts, and brake issue.

Discussion in 'VZ Holden Commodore (2004 - 2006)' started by Waughy, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. Waughy

    Waughy Member

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    I recently got my old VZ wagon back from my parents. It's been in the family for 10 years now, and apart from needing new coil packs about a year ago it has been a good car.
    I recently had it inspected at a local Pedders as I'm having a bit of trouble with brake shudder/pulsing, and in the list of things they picked up are the rear cross member mounts.

    I've read through a few good threads on changing the mounts, so no problem there, but one thread I was reading a member stated their workshop manual says to replace the bolts. The bolts are torqued then turned an extra 40 degrees (from memory I think it's that much).

    The bolts seem impossible to find, so was wondering what others who have done this job have done. re use the original bolts, or get high tensile replacements, or is there somewhere that still has the correct bolts available?

    With the brakes:
    At first they were shuddering and this could be felt through the steering. The front radius rod bushes had previously been replaced with nolathane items and were still in very good condition, so next I changed the front rotors and pads, thinking they were warped. This helped somewhat , but still had some shudder. After the Pedders inspection I replaced the lower trailing arms, so that took care of the pivot bush, and rear radius rod bush (all rubber replacements), which were on the list and worn. The sway bar link pins, and strut top mounts/bearings are also new, although Pedders tried to tell me I needed new strut top mounts as the ones in the car were collapsed. Funny thing is there's no knocking going over bumps anymore, and the top plates sit against the strut towers, with no gaps like you see with a stuffed mount.

    I'm now getting more of a pulsing effect when braking, which seems more apparent when things have warmed up. There's no noticeable shudder through the steering wheel now, it's more through the pedal. I recently replaced 2 tyres (worn out, made no difference to the problem) and had the 4 wheels balanced at the time. I haven't had a wheel alignment yet as I'm looking to do the front and rear shocks in the next few months, plus the car drives straight with no pulling, so I don't think it's too bad as it is, if it's not already as good as it can be. I do get a very slight shudder around 100, which stops a few k's over or under.

    Other things Pedders called out include the rear brakes, tail shaft centre bearing, steering rack (they say it's worn but steering feels fine to me), and the rear cross member mounts. I did read in an article on the Bendix site that rear brakes can cause pulsing that is felt through the pedal, so that's next on my list of things to try.

    Also, with the cross member mounts, the car doesn't have the upper rubber, and Holden confirmed this by checking my VIN against their system. If I replace these with Nolathane or similar, would it be an idea to fit the upper part, or leave it out?

    Any suggestions on any of this stuff would be appreciated.
     
  2. figjam

    figjam Donating Member

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    Pedders tried to tell me I needed new strut top mounts as the ones in the car were collapsed. Funny thing is there's no knocking going over bumps anymore, and the top plates sit against the strut towers, with no gaps like you see with a stuffed mount.

    I have a brake shudder in my VZ Crewman which won't go away, but seems to be inconsistent as to where, and how hard I apply the brakes. Long downhill runs are the worst. I don't ride the brakes, just a quick push to bring it back to the 'legal' speed.
    I have had new pads, machined (very lightly) the discs, and the front radius bushes are OK. My strut top mounts were stuffed, with about 10mm gap at the top, but no clunks or noises. Replacing them did not make any difference to the shudder, so I doubt that would be your problem.
    Rotating the tyres, and swapping wheels from another car has no effect.
     
  3. 99notout

    99notout Member

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    You have to remember that places like Pedders are in the business of making money, hence if a part is even slightly worn etc, they will recommend replacing the part with their parts. Doesn't always equate to the part they recommend replacing is beyond its useful life though. Best way I could put it diplomatically. Brake pulsing/shudder when coming down from speed, look at replacing the disks and pads at the same time.
     
  4. immortality

    immortality Moderator Staff Member

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    Is there anything pedders said that doesn't need replacement?

    Very generally speaking, a shudder or pulsing in the pedal would suggest a brake rotor (or less likely) a caliper issue. It could also be a worn wheel hub/bearing issue. the only way to check would be to take the wheel off, put some nuts on the studs (to hold the rotor firm against the hub) and then check for brake rotor run out or bearing issue in the hub.

    If the shudder is felt through the steering than I'd be looking at front suspension and it you feel it through the seat than the rear suspension.

    When you replaced the rotors did you make sure the hubs were 100% clean so the new rotors would sit flat on the hubs?

    To test the whole steering assembly, jack up one side of the car leaving the other steer tyre on the ground, unlock the steering column and then holding the other wheel at 3 and 9 o'clock you will soon see if there is any play in any of the steering components.
     
  5. Waughy

    Waughy Member

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    Pedders told me my strut tops were like that, but they were nice and flush when I looked at them. They also tried to tell me the rubber ones I fitted were cheap **** and that's why they were stuffed already (they'd been in 4 weeks). When I had the new tyres fitted the wheels were rotated too, which made no difference.

    They didn't mention the front struts, which I'm sure need doing. When doing the top mounts the left strut retracted and I had to pull it back out and hold it while trying to do the nut up on the mount. Both dust boots are in 2 pieces as well, no mention of that.

    I read similar on the Bendix site, and that's pretty much my experience, no shudder through steering (only when doing around 100, not braking). They say it's in the pedal if it's rear brakes but I don't feel that either, but through the seat I would say yes I get that.
    Pedders did say my rear shocks are stuffed, and the rear brakes need doing. I plan to do the shocks and springs (going low springs) all round when I'm off work at Christmas, if I can afford to. Brakes I'll probably do first and see if that does anything.

    Front rotors and pads were replaced, using DBA En-shield rotors and Bendix general CT pads. I did hit the hubs with the wire brush and got them fairly smooth, but removing the rotors to make room when I did the lower control arms I did find they didn't come off too easily and needed a little persuasion with the rubber mallet (didn't need to belt them though) so I'll give them another go and get some sandpaper onto them too.

    I did do the bearing/tie rod end tests. The driver wheel had some play when holding at 12 and 6 and rocking the wheel, but I tried it again a few days later and it didn't move, so I'm thinking I may have not had the wheel nuts done up fully at the time.

    I've been thinking about it and the pulsing does seem to be more apparent after I've been driving for a while, cold things seem ok, so maybe the bearings are stuffed but need to warm up to show it. I'm not getting any noises to suggest bad bearings though. I did pick up a torque wrench and have done the wheel nuts to 120Nm, so I'll have a another go at the hubs and see if I find anything odd.

    Thanks for the feedback so far. Just need to find what the culprit is and deal with it. Most stuff in the suspension is still factory so I'll probably end up replacing everything over the next 6-12 months as funds allow.
     
  6. the_boozer

    the_boozer no more VK

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    go some where else pedders only fix things by replacing everything one pedders branch once let me drive off with a loose steering coupling on a HZ they did give me a price to replace a heap of front end bushes the steering box and pump but didn't point out the coupling was about to fall off (loose bolts).
     
  7. Waughy

    Waughy Member

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    I have a choice of 2 Pedders stores in my area. One I used to go to and they were always good, but that was 20 years ago. I went to the other one on recommendation that the other one had gone to **** and these guys were great. Other than the report they gave me putting me off, the owner didn't seem one bit interested in anything, he just wanted the day to end so he could go home, after making some money, probably doing a heap of unnecessary work.

    I'll definitely be looking for somewhere else to go, but it's getting harder to find people that actually care and take pride in their work, over those that are just in it for the income.
     
  8. immortality

    immortality Moderator Staff Member

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    Shocks definitely need replacement as one is 100% stuffed.

    Shocks are a major safety item, I'd do those as soon as possible. Clean the hubs and torque it all up correctly in a star pattern and see how things go.
     
  9. Waughy

    Waughy Member

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    Shocks are top of the list, just need to get the funds to buy what I want. Rears are stuffed to so doing the 4 in one hit. I'll get new top mounts for the fronts so I can assemble them beforehand, then fitting them will be a piece of cake.
     
  10. NeddyBear

    NeddyBear Veteran Mountain Biker

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    I replaced my rear subframe rubbers recently and when I purchased the bolts from Holden I was told these are the last 2 in Australia.
    Latter I was telling a mate about my rubber bushing issues and he had to buy the grade 8 bolts from a fastener specialist maybe $10 each.
    Pedders now don't get me going, I took the car in for one of their underbody inspections and was told the rear subframe rubbers need replacing which I did using their recommendation but not using the Pedder's parts, after a bit of Googling I bought the exact same parts from Autopro and the Nolathane parts even had the part numbers Pedders use so I'm thinking some of Pedders parts is just overpriced relabelled products made by other companies.
    My bumping noise ended up being a loose exhaust and mounts which Pedders never picked up on and most likely the original Holden rubbers were still in good condition no splits and still firm. When replacing the rubbers I would recommend doing one at a time and don't remove both at once or when it comes to lining up the holes, Jesus and Christ will be getting abused. Another tip is to use the genuine Holden rubbers and not the Neothane stuff.
     
  11. Waughy

    Waughy Member

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    There’s a post on another forum where someone measured the bolts, so I’ll try the local bolt specialist for some. Are they torqued the same as the originals, minus the extra turn? I’ve seen a few posts saying do one at a time, which is how I was thinking of doing it anyway.

    Did your original mounts have the upper piece or not?
    I won’t be looking at nolathane, was thinking one of the softer poly brands would be better, but originals are half the cost, so I’ll look at a pair of those.
    Do they slip in, or do the need some grease to help, and stop and noises?

    Found the thread with the specs for anyone that might be looking. The bolts are M14 x 1.5. Length looks to be about 5.3 inches.

    Here's a link with more info and detail, it's an interesting read.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017

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