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Red Vs Black motors

Discussion in 'Straight 6 Development And Modification' started by vc commodore, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    I'll start off with, a sorry if this is the wrong section.

    I am wondering whether red motor extractors bolt onto a black motor.

    I would also like to know,whether a red motor flywheel will bolt onto a black motor crank....

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Dylan kingswood

    Dylan kingswood Active Member

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    No to extractors unsure on flywheel I’ll have a stab on yes though
     
  3. gtrboyy

    gtrboyy Well-Known Member

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    Red is 9 port blue/blck is 12 port if look at head.

    No sure about flywheels... you'd have to research it but wouldn't be surprised that they do only remember black engines having weird junk 5 speeds
     
  4. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    Flywheel/clutch diameters and weights are different. I had a red motor flywheel on my black 202. Bellhousing is different too, so for Aussie 4 speed you need the right bellhousing for the clutch. E.g. can’t use red motor bellhousing with blue motor clutch as it hits, and can’t be ground out enough to make it work whilst retaining structural integrity.

    Red motor flywheel will bolt on but will give heavier rotating assy due to later engines having larger crank counterweights etc. I did it this way and still revved to 6500rpm and didn’t really notice the additional weight. Later flywheels are lighter from memory - not sure how much but it’s considerable.

    If you’re planning on bolting your Toyota 5 speed up it’ll work without issue.

    Extractors are different. Can change heads to suit, just need to drill holes into deck for coolant flow to head if fitting blue/black head onto earlier engine. Wouldn’t bother with red heads stock vs stock, they’re far less efficient. Some people have made red extractors fit blue/black heads but it’ll never be quite right.
     
  5. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the Holden 5 speeds were crap.....I had one about 10 years ago, behind a very very mild red.....It was in the car 2 weeks and spat the bottom front bearing out...So I swapped it out for a Supra 5 speed
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  6. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    Thanks EYY.....Spoke to a fella that is selling a couple of blacks, with a shed load of holden 6 gear real cheap...One of the blacks has a fully recoed top end and a real nice street cam.....Just needs bearings, as it has a little bottom end noise when it when it warms up.

    So the plan will be, check the crank, throw some bearings at it and put my Supra 5 speed behind it. And as luck will have it, the bellhousing on my 5 speed is suited to a black, as it has the hole at the top for the sensor....Not that I need it.
     
  7. lmoengnr

    lmoengnr Well-Known Member

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    Sounds just like an Opel 4 speed fitted in LC Torana's...
     
  8. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    IIRC, the five speed was coded MP6 and was known as the Philippines box. I scrounged one from a wreck years ago and was thinking of replacing the Trimatic in my HR with it. Decided against because it's rarity meant that the various parts needed made it too much trouble.
     
  9. Dylan kingswood

    Dylan kingswood Active Member

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    I miss my starfire and Opel 4 speed never gave me any problems apart from having to rebuild the carby
     
  10. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    I think they were made by borg warner, but don't quote me, as my memory is like yours....Very vague....However I could check up, as I have a manual covering VH and VK commodores (which is what they were fitted to).

    The thing I really disliked about them was 2nd gear ratio was very close to the 1st gear ratio....
     
  11. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    VC,
    Stupid ratios were also a problem with the M21, which had first and second way too close. I'm pretty certain that 5 speeder was an import and was definitely known as the Philippines box. Can't remember the actual designation. I said MP6, might have been MC6.
     
  12. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    The 5 speed was actually made by Borg Warner.....Just checked my workshop manual relating to them. They might have had a nickname but I honestly can't remember...

    The MC6 was a 4 speed that was available in the later Commodores....I seem to think it was around the VH, but the memory doesn't stretch that far.....(Could check the 4 speed VH I have here) So mixing up MP6 with MC6 is easily done :) According to the manual it was known as a torquemaster 4 speed....By the looks of the diagram, the gearshift screws into the rear extension housing to select gears, where the M20 and M21's used linkages to select gears.

    Please don't think I'm having a dig at you....I'm in the same boat as you....Pressing the memory bank back decades :)....I'm using a Max Ellery workshop manual as a reference to try and help refresh the memory bank....So please don't take offense
     
  13. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    VC I suspect our wires crossed somewhere. The Torquemaster was the box I was referring to, not the Holden 5 speed. I had one I'd pulled out of a wreck as mentioned and yes, the gearshift was an internal setup. I think I flogged it for about a hundred dollars. It had the right bellhousing to slot straight onto a red motor and it would have been more interesting to drive in the HR than the Traumatic, but in the end, the HR was sold and the box was still laying around.
     

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