Stinger GT vs SSV Redline 0-100 & 1/4 Mile

Some of the luxury features are nice but I remember the original performance Commodores, base model, with not much in the way of creature comforts, but for their day they performed which really in the end is why I bought one.

 

I’m very much for real.

I regularly buy new cars and I inspect enough of them to know what’s available and my thoughts are not clouded by brand loyalty.

I’m also aware that the way a car enthusiast see a purchase is completely at odds with the way an A to B buyer goes about making a choice.

You only have to ask a car salesman about the type of people who walk through the dealership doors to get an insight into what is and isn’t important to the bulk of owners.

I’ve said it many time and I’ll say it again, if the commodore wasn’t available with a V8 I wouldn’t consider one in a fit.



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The day you have to start manually moving a seat back and forth with a disabled person's weight on it so you can lift them in an out is the day you'll want to reach for a switch to electronically adjust it no matter how slow it may be compared to manual adjustment.

I have a $60k Redline that doesn't have electric seats when I would have expected better.

Where are those stats that say in car gizmos are causing motor vehicle accidents, most functions in a modern vehicle are voice activated if you are that concerned about distractions.

And while those gizmos distract let make a law to stop eating, drinking and smoking in cars and no kids or pets in the back, come on, being attentive behind the wheel of a car is the drivers responsibility.



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I used to have a big car for family duties and when my children started to flee home I got rid it because it just sat in the garage not being used.

My wife wouldn’t drive it as it was too big and I found my Commodore easier as my personal daily for the same reason and eventually bit the bullet and downsized it.

If I could have gotten a fully loaded Calais back in the late 2000’s I would have been a happy camper but even the later VE Calais had been de-contented by Holden and didn’t have some of the bits and pieces the original release had.

I remember my mate feeling very piss to see his new LS3 powered E Series Senator had things missing that my Calais V had.


Many dealers at the time were saying their customers were walking away from the Commodore while making comments they could do better for their money.


The W427 may be holding their prices but that’s all they are currently doing.

Here’s a couple on carsales: https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/holdenspecialvehicles/w427/

I’d never buy a new car with collectability in mind as I always buy what I want so as I can enjoy it.

Storing cars or even owning and running them for a lot of years isn’t cheap and even an unregistered vehicle needs insurance each year and after you’ve waited 30 years then you may get a return.

Old barn finds which usually cost a mint to restore and collectable GT’s, Monaros and Toranas that are really worth something are few and far between and that is because back in the day most owners didn’t see them as being worth something in years to come.

The lucky one are those who loved their cars from new or almost new and couldn’t part with them and they are now worth something, not that someone who loves their car that much would ever sell it anyway which means it’s monetary value is nil.

That has now changed with many speculators storing vehicles with low to delivery kays that in years to come may or may not be what tickles a future collector’s fancy.

It’s a real lottery.

An M or AMG may have a much bigger depreciation and not be as rare as a W427 but I don’t hear of many people saying they are storing them in the hope one day they’ll be collectable.

Most owners drive them for what they are which means the numbers will whittle down by natural attrition which in turn means they may become more collectable and if they do then they'll also have the advantage of being a vehicle with international appeal.

Who knows what something will eventually be worth?

Collecting new cars for financial gain is for mugs and those who are wealthy enough to be able to afford the folly.

Not for one minute have I ever regretted not buying a W427 as I ended up getting more fun out of what I found as an alternative that suited me better for the price.


The interior of a W427 is bare bone HSV Commodore and to think with that big front bar they didn’t even get front park assist and yet my 3rd of the price Calais did and SATNAV was optional for your $160k.










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It’s interesting when you see examples of fashion & presumption completely blotting out reality.
Our housemate has a 10yo X-Trail, but for this 2 weeks she’s got a borrowed current-model one. These are cars that people get because they believe they’ve got a better view.
Anyhoo, gave her a lift last night & she commented how good the view was out of the front of the VF. Especially compared to the new X-Trail. Yes you’re up higher in the gerlytruk, but you can’t see anything near the car, and it makes parking & car-parks a chore; especially doing that inner-city stuff that so many gerlytruk buyers get a gerlytruk for (narrow streets & tight parking-areas).

All this talk of features missing in Commodores; does it really make that much different to sales? I guess it could with millenials & Gen Y. My observation of non-car-enthusiasts of my age (Gen X) and older is that they’ll look at what they feel comfortable in & how the car feels before they look at features. They buy based on the size/shape & percieved functionality of the car first, as well as percieved quality (and admittedly what they think others will think if they buy a particular car). There have been “big ticket” features that might stop a sale being made (eg. cruise control not being available), but I think Falcodores have had these things by the time they were important (eg. ABS).
panhead, I see what you’re saying about W427 equipment levels; but I don’t think that was ever going to be a car where it mattered. There’s nothing they could really have done about how archaic & rough it was compared to anything else the same price; so they almost played on it.
Mind you, if they could’ve competed with something German at the same price on refinement & quality & upmarket vibe, they’d have maybe sold a couple more.

Let’s face it ... all the people around here complaining of missing features in Commodores bought a Commodore anyway.

 

Don't she notice the A pillar being so big??

2 things I hate about VE/VF the big A pillar and VF steering feel.

 

Yeah she did agree with my when I commented on the A Pillar, but she didn’t notice that until I pointed it out; guess it wasn’t as big a thing as mirrors blocking side-vision as per the current N-Trail.

Steering feel; I don’t have a point of reference, I guess, I’ve not noticed it being terrible.
Had a rental Rustang for a ~500km round-trip yesterday, the steering was maybe a bit more feelsome now you mention it. I wanted to either love it or hate it compared to the VF, within the bounds of a cheaper look/feel; love because V8 Commodore is Gone so a good alternative is a good thing to have, but hate because it’d be nice to think our Thing is better. But ... well, given it’s almost two generations newer a car, I think I expected more than it could give, maybe because it’s so built-to-a-price. But there are positives c/f the VF, as well as negatives. The Commodore definitely feels like it’s more stuck-to-the-road on a Putty Road trip, but the Rustang does probably feel more planted if you’re not driving it quite as hard. Brakes truly sucked (and suspension/chassis really really couldn’t be properly settled braking into corners - better to go in slower & coast through), steering was OK, interior pretty cheap, switchgear felt really nasty/cheap, OMFG the resonance/drumming when between 60 & 100 was shocking. Gearbox sooo much smarter than the Commodore one, a revelation by comparison; and yet it felt weird & unpredictable at times too. Seat felt better at first, started to feel not as good as the Redline’s after 4hrs or so.
I’d definitely be royally p1ss3d if I’d bought one, with that brain-bending resonance between 60 & 100; you wouldn’t notice that on a test-drive, not even a slightly longer one. You wouldn’t expect a standard car to do that ...

The above’s a bit off-topic for JC I guess, but this is a thread about potential future alternatives so thought I’d share.

 

I’m more surprised that you use a luxury / gadget yardstick when comparing value for money in a sports sedan. V8 is of course a given.
Here’s another forum article from 2 1/2 years again which compares value for money in a context I understand (unfortunately not reliability), between a street legal, slightly warm SS and naturally aspirated sports cars.
I wonder how many cars in that list or this list (naturally aspirated buying drivetrain mainly) have all the bells and whistles you need?
A KIA / Hyundai does match any overpriced marque from yesteryear with gadgets and hoi poloy, possibly why there’s more KiA than MB and VAG combined. Silly race for gadgets, not really why people buy an SS in the first place.

 

funny just had a mustang(ecoboost 4) in Canada for 2000kms, I loved it felt like my old VY SV8 lively and felt sort of alive I guess, the VF to me is a bit dull. Everyone is different.

 

Well this was a GT, engine sounds way better than a VF but don’t know if I could say the same c/f a VF2 mit LS3.
I know what you mean by feeling alive, in Sport+ mode at least; but thing is, in normal mode it felt just as lethargic as a VF does. Which means the difference is all about software. I suspect monstar/pir4te has a strong point in terms of fixing those VF problems with minor programming mods.
But that resonance which makes you buggered after 3hrs of it assaulting your ears (and I mean to the point of giving you a headache), the nasty sub-Toyobaru interior, the poor suspension tune; these are a bit hard to swallow for ~$65k, especially when Holden resolved those issues for less $$$ in a better-made car over 5 years ago.

 

I’d sort-of expect a GT350 to be user-unfriendly, but a generic GT melting your brain with unpleasant resonant frequencies is a bit unexpected.

 

Five? 11 years ago.

 

I have to agree the members here are buying V8 Commodores regardless of gadgets or not and I’m guilty as well.

That’s what you do when your choice for affordable V8 powered sedans is thin on the ground.

But a sports sedan in today’s world is seen as a luxury car with performance and thankfully the VF2 has finally come to the party, it’s just a shame it’s also its swansong.

Even with the VF2 improvements I still can’t help wonder why the US market were given more fruit than the loyal Aussie market until Holden found a heart and installed some of it into the recent Limited Edition models.

Many of the owners bought the LE models to get those extras and I must say I was in two minds myself about grabbing one.

On the other side of the coin I would have also been happy to see Holden go for broke and also offer a stripped out bare bones V8 like the old Belmont HQ’s where you were lucky to get a steering wheel.

Even the SV8 from 10 years or more back were a good idea for the budget conscious V8 owner or weekend racer.

How about getting around with no air and no power steering, what a blast.

I’d like one of both, one for grand touring and one for fun.


But we got this far on the subject because of my initial comment about the loyal customers who turned away from the Commodore because it wasn’t competing in the gizmo area.

Holden’s marketing department arranged a photo shoot of some of my cars some years back as publicity to counter growing discontent coming from customer surveys after the release the VE.

Some interesting things were discussed that day and I was surprised at what the motoring journalists know about the cars and the market that doesn’t get reported in the media.

For one thing my brand new Calais had to be jump started to get it there and jump started to get it home and the journalist knew of this problem which I was told was across the board for the model variant but it wasn’t reported until Holden eventually came up with a fix.

Imagine it, I was being interviewed because of my love of a reliable Holden product and one of my new cars being photographed needed jump starting every morning.

What I learnt that day was Aussie cars are the magazine's bread and butter and they sell a lot more copy to enthusiasts when a Commodore or Falcon is on the cover and for that reason they don’t kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

No enthusiast wants to read or hear bad things about their car of choice.

That’s when car reviews became a thing of the past for me.

I also learned a couple of other things, customers were turning away in droves because the VE wasn’t competitive with the gizmos as I’ve pointed out and that is possibly something many members on a Holden Commodore forum doesn’t want to hear and I understand I’ve upset some people by saying it.

I didn’t like hearing either.

And the one that made me laugh, Holden didn’t want my HSV’s in the photo shoot as they are not Holdens.

Tell that to the Ford boys.


I liked those articles you linked but in my context I’m talking about stock factory vehicles and you as much as anyone would know a fast car is equivalent to the depth of your pockets whether you pour your cash into buying a supercar or you mod a massed produced family hack or you mod a supercar.


I know many of us here mod our cars to make them quicker and perform better, there is a strong aftermarket industry catering for it but it’s not so easy to find shops that add things like heated and cooled seats and in any case without competition the price would most likely be over the top, the cooling of seats is a great idea for the Aussie climate.


If someone who reading this knows the answer to my next question let me in on the secret, why doesn’t my Ute get Bose speakers, what is the technical hitch?

Not that I care as I’m not into car audio much these days and I know they are only entry level anyway and it’s about the name not the quality but for the price why do the Ute’s miss out?



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It's not just for those who deal with the disabled, when you get older and your arms and legs start to lose strength, manual seats become harder to use.

If it was just for myself I don't have a problem at this stage in my life as I set them then forget as no-one else drives the car, hell I have some old models where the manual mechanisms are dodgy by design compared to the easier to use modern stuff and it takes some stuffing around to adjust them but for me at $60k the seats should be electric.

My 2007 VE Calais V had memory seats with all those functions including height adjustment.

Just shove the key in and it adjusted everything to suit the programme.

I don't know if the newer models do but it wouldn't surprise me that Holden removed them along with other things they also removed in later cars.



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Yeah I was actually going to say that, but then remembered the interior & switchgear.

I reckon the limited editions partially answer the question of why stuff like the suspension wasn’t fitted here. Wouldn’t be anything worth getting in the limited editions of that gear was already available!
And the other part of the answer is HSV; wouldn’t have been many ~$75k Clubsports sold if you could’ve had an LS3 in a ~$60k Redline.
They played exactly the same equipment game with HSV as well, eg. HUD as fitted to ~$60k Redlines not available in ~$75k Clubsport ...

 

Panhead, regarding the Ute not getting the Bose sound equipment, I have always suspected this is because Holden know that anyone wanting to buy the ute, has no other alternative (Falcon Ute in my opinion is a different market demographic) so they kick sand in your face by removing some of the items that cost THEM money (seats too).
The same thing with the Sportwagon, no roof or Bose in the Redline but they want 5K more than the Sedan.
I love my Redline, I really enjoy driving it and will keep it long term but Holden as a brand is dead to me, they can continue marketing to the hipster numpties but they have lost me (not they they actually care about losing a customer who wants a RWD V8, that ship has sailed in terms of their income stream).

 

Here,here......

 

I don’t get that, you mean VF2 is more luxury than VE1 coz the extended electronic aids and velour dash?

Yes the opportunity was there to do a Holden with GM ASA cam, pod filter, 8l45 trans, carbon wheels, Multimatic dynamic suspension spool valve (DSSV) shocks, standard glass, no rear seat, no spare, no bimodals, no fogs or DRL, no ICE, and lightweight (manual) front seats. Would be a sucker for 1LE style aero kit as option.

Nah not upset, just can’t find any good reference to those complaints for any time period here on the enthusiast forum.

True up to the point where stock factory vehicles are naturally aspirated “Supercars” sporting ready-tuned hand-built forged race engines with complex valve timing, induction and exhaust systems because money is no object. Versus $43k sports sedan. We both know that pouring $20k into the Holden will bring it to commensurate performance, for a sum less than half neigh 1/10th of anything else on offer.
In the original context of 1962 Bathurst when production cars competed in four classes based on the purchase price of the vehicle in Australian dollars, Holden V8 would blitz the price class and outright.
It was in ‘72 that the capacity price (CP) muddled for most what was previously a practical useful trial of speed and reliability vs the buck.
With the advent of sorry-arsed downsizing, and AWD setups, I’d also welcome forced induction vehicles like the Stinger to the race classed properly on the basis of effective volumetric capacity (static swept x ATM boost). Stinger at 7.46 litres vs SS at 6.16 full pelt, all day.

It doesn’t matter which gadgets you load a diminutive, overinflated V6 with in order to sell to a mechanically witless demographic, stripped bare and shown for what it is, the value of the unproven Korean newcomer is lacking. History and authenticity beneath the skin-deep knick knacks is important to me.